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Last week we kicked off our Top 100 TV Shows Countdown, and there’s been an amazing response to it! Are you ready for Part 2 of our countdown? Where will your favorite shows rank? Tune into GeekCast Radio and find out! Here’s Part 2 of the GCRN Top 100 TV Shows Countdown. This episode we reveal #75 through #51! And as always “UNLEASH THE GEEK IN YOU!”
Geeks
Steve “Megatron” Phillips
Dan “MovieRevolt” Clark
Kevin “OptimusSolo” Thompson
Amanda “HardCandiMandi” Kosowiec
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Technically Full House was an 80s-90s bridge show since it started in 1987 and ended in 1995.
Did anyone say it wasn’t?
well it was said that it was a 90s show. Which I get, because the majority of it was in the 90s when it was super popular, but still had a bit of 80s influence in the beginning.
Oh yea, I get what you are saying. Yea, It’s like Duck Tales or TMNT!!
As most do, which is fine. Because only 3 of it’s Seasons were actually in the 80s. But I still had to point out that it was one of those 80-90s decade bridge shows :-)
True true, I guess considering it a 90’s series mostly because of when I watched it. And style and fashion wise feels more 90’s than 80’s but I get your point.
Technically Full House was an 80s-90s bridge show since it started in 1987 and ended in 1995.
Did anyone say it wasn’t?
well it was said that it was a 90s show. Which I get, because the majority of it was in the 90s when it was super popular, but still had a bit of 80s influence in the beginning.
Oh yea, I get what you are saying. Yea, It’s like Duck Tales or TMNT!!
See I always consider it a 90’s show myself. It’s prime was mostly in the 90’s.
As most do, which is fine. Because only 3 of it’s Seasons were actually in the 80s. But I still had to point out that it was one of those 80-90s decade bridge shows :-)
True true, I guess considering it a 90’s series mostly because of when I watched it. And style and fashion wise feels more 90’s than 80’s but I get your point.
I tried to like “The Big Bang Theory”. I really tried. However, after seeing a couple of episodes from this sitcom, I ended hating everything about it.
For me, the biggest problem from “The Big Bang Theory” (Besides of the unfunny jokes and the awful cultural references) were the characters. All of them were incredibly unlikeable and annoying (even those that the viewers are supposed to sympathize) unsurprisingly, those characters are also clichés, perpetuating the stereotypical characterization of the “nerd” archetype as seen in many, many other movies and television shows, since the film “Revenge of the Nerds”.
All the references made in this show are not only bland, shallow and forced, but also painfully unfunny as well. To get things worse, that stupid laugh track made all those so-called jokes even more irritating, as it were constant reminders to the viewers of what they are supposed to be laughing at.
I consider “The Big Bang Theory ” to be a strongly mediocre series with overused stereotypes and flat jokes. For me, this show was like the live-action equivalent of one those lame and unfunny gaming web comics which try to be “cool” and “edgy” by including misogyny and lots of random (and also utterly pointless) nerd references. No way it should be in the top 100.
There weren’t any other shows I didn’t think belonged. Arrow was a maybe at best. I get it being a geek list but I would say Arrow at its best isn’t nearly as good as Incredible Hulk. And people forget how big of an impact that show had. Arrow though is not liked by more than comic book fans. I hope Hulk makes the list somewhere.
Surprised Buffy isn’t higher. Not that it should be just that people tend to rank that show high in geek type lists. I like it and think its in a good spot.
Yea i don’t think I am. For one being popular means nothing. And to be clear the show itself has never won anything of merit. Jim Parsons has but the show itself. Watch the YouTube clips of Big Bang with the laugh track removed. You’ll see how bad that show really is.
It has won awards for directing, writing, and guest spots as well. And nominated for best series a bunch. When you are as popular as Big Bang it does mean something. It means you are accomplishing the biggest goal of a TV show and getting ratings.
What episodes did you see because Big Bang morphs into a lot more than what you are describing. You are painting the entire show with a broad brush based on what appears is not much knowledge of it.
I plan on addressing the BBT thing in Part 3 of the countdown.
I watched a total of dozen up to maybe 20 episodes from the first to the most recent season. And every issue I mentioned continues. If anything is painting a broad brush its the way Big Bang Theory paints the geek community as all socially awkward nerds who haven’t evolved past Burger from Revenge of the Nerds.
I like Big Bang and have been with it since I saw them playing Halo, which was my favorite video game at the time. I also liked the geek aspect of the show and just stuck with it. It’s predictable fun. No show appeals to everyone. It is deserving of being on the list and I think it could fall lower on the list, honestly.
Buffy was one of those shows I heard about but scoffed at it. Then my wife started watching it and I found myself glued to what was going on. It has several very strong seasons with very good writing and strong characters. I put it at 54 on my list, so I’m happy with where it landed on this list.
That’s my point with Big Bang. People like it because they have the same shirt as the people on the show or play the same video game. They pander to geeks in such a contrived way.
I am 100% in support of this. It’s a show about nerds, it’s not for nerds.
“How average chicks see nerds.” — this is not going to make most male redditors feel good about themselves
Also, from a theatrical perspective the acting, staging and character development isn’t great. It’s not like Will and Grace which was as much a weekly exercise in acting arts and critique of theater arts as it was a comedy about a gay/straight couple.
From an art perspective, Big Bang Theory is an uninteresting take on a cultural divide, which is a weird formula.
I tried to like “The Big Bang Theory”. I really tried. However, after seeing a couple of episodes from this sitcom, I ended hating everything about it.
For me, the biggest problem from “The Big Bang Theory” (Besides of the unfunny jokes and the awful cultural references) were the characters. All of them were incredibly unlikeable and annoying (even those that the viewers are supposed to sympathize) unsurprisingly, those characters are also clichés, perpetuating the stereotypical characterization of the “nerd” archetype as seen in many, many other movies and television shows, since the film “Revenge of the Nerds”.
All the references made in this show are not only bland, shallow and forced, but also painfully unfunny as well. To get things worse, that stupid laugh track made all those so-called jokes even more irritating, as it were constant reminders to the viewers of what they are supposed to be laughing at.
I consider “The Big Bang Theory ” to be a strongly mediocre series with overused stereotypes and flat jokes. For me, this show was like the live-action equivalent of one those lame and unfunny gaming web comics which try to be “cool” and “edgy” by including misogyny and lots of random (and also utterly pointless) nerd references. No way it should be in the top 100.
There weren’t any other shows I didn’t think belonged. Arrow was a maybe at best. I get it being a geek list but I would say Arrow at its best isn’t nearly as good as Incredible Hulk. And people forget how big of an impact that show had. Arrow though is not liked by more than comic book fans. I hope Hulk makes the list somewhere.
Surprised Buffy isn’t higher. Not that it should be just that people tend to rank that show high in geek type lists. I like it and think its in a good spot.
You are being way too harsh on Big Bang. It so deserves to be in the Top 100. It’s the biggest show in TV right now and even if you don’t find it funny many do. As they mentioned in the record it has also won awards so its not just geeks liking something because people wear comic book t-shirts,
Yea i don’t think I am. For one being popular means nothing. And to be clear the show itself has never won anything of merit. Jim Parsons has but the show itself. Watch the YouTube clips of Big Bang with the laugh track removed. You’ll see how bad that show really is.
It has won awards for directing, writing, and guest spots as well. And nominated for best series a bunch. When you are as popular as Big Bang it does mean something. It means you are accomplishing the biggest goal of a TV show and getting ratings.
What episodes did you see because Big Bang morphs into a lot more than what you are describing. You are painting the entire show with a broad brush based on what appears is not much knowledge of it.
I plan on addressing the BBT thing in Part 3 of the countdown.
I watched a total of dozen up to maybe 20 episodes from the first to the most recent season. And every issue I mentioned continues. If anything is painting a broad brush its the way Big Bang Theory paints the geek community as all socially awkward nerds who haven’t evolved past Burger from Revenge of the Nerds.
I like Big Bang and have been with it since I saw them playing Halo, which was my favorite video game at the time. I also liked the geek aspect of the show and just stuck with it. It’s predictable fun. No show appeals to everyone. It is deserving of being on the list and I think it could fall lower on the list, honestly.
Buffy was one of those shows I heard about but scoffed at it. Then my wife started watching it and I found myself glued to what was going on. It has several very strong seasons with very good writing and strong characters. I put it at 54 on my list, so I’m happy with where it landed on this list.
That’s my point with Big Bang. People like it because they have the same shirt as the people on the show or play the same video game. They pander to geeks in such a contrived way.
I am 100% in support of this. It’s a show about nerds, it’s not for nerds.
“How average chicks see nerds.” — this is not going to make most male redditors feel good about themselves
Also, from a theatrical perspective the acting, staging and character development isn’t great. It’s not like Will and Grace which was as much a weekly exercise in acting arts and critique of theater arts as it was a comedy about a gay/straight couple.
From an art perspective, Big Bang Theory is an uninteresting take on a cultural divide, which is a weird formula.
So much to say I don’t know where to start. First Community way way too low. Top 50 for sure. Great seeing Silicon Valley. Part of me wants to argue it should be higher but I get its only two seasons so maybe too soon to say.
Regarding the Cosby Show. I was never the biggest fan of that show to begin with as a kid. So I don’t have an issue with it being where it is. With that said I don’t think someone’s personal life shouldn’t impact where a show falls. Reason I have an issue with the WWE erasing Chris Beniot from everything.
I agree with you on Community. Much too low. Flip that and Big Bang, then remove Big Bang altogether and you might have it right.
Man you can’t get over how much you hate that show can you. At least we can agree on Community though. So we have that.
You hate that show don’t you.
I literally just LOUDLY CACKLED for 5 minutes!!!!
I think they’re both nuts. Arrow and Daredevil are equally bad in different ways.
Well to say Daredevil is bad is ridiculous then to say its equal with Arrow is an entire level of nuts. Daredevil is one of the best things Marvel and or DC has ever done. That’s not just me cause across the board it has been highly rated by everyone from IGN to The AV Club that usually hates superhero stuff.
If you don’t like it that’s your right, but to say its bad without giving a reason is a little much.
That’s absolutely fine. My reasons are as follows.
I can say Daredevil is bad if I want. It’s my opinion. I found it cliched as all hell, poorly shot, poorly acted and violent just for the sake of being violent. I’m not prudish in relation to violence, but the tone of it is way out of line with the rest of the Marvel Universe. I imagine that Jessica Jones will follow the same path It felt like a fan film where someone wanted to make a “gritty” take on the material.
I didn’t say it was equal to Arrow. I think equally as bad, but in different ways. Arrow started off okay, but went downhill fast. It suffers from an overly convoluted plot, a “Lost” style obsession with constant flashbacks and a 24 episode season which results in a shocking amount of filler. Stephen Amell is really good, but the rest of the cast are a major let down. I also have issues with the loose nature of how DC relates their movie/TV universes, which is not at all.
But as I said, that’s just my opinion.
I have to disagree with the poorly shot argument. I don’t see that at all, especially when it comes to the fight choreography I feel its shot rather well. From the infamous hallway scene to the underrated Taxi exchange in the following episode.
I can kinda of see the violence argument, but Daredevil is a type of character where violence plays a huge role in who he is. Being the normal man (compared to other superheros) and feeling the effects of that. And Wilson Fisk too, the use of violence with his character is vital to demonstrate his fractured psyche and why he is such a destructive force. I can’t think of a moment when violence was just used for violence sake.
With the acting again I can’t agree. Elend Henson as Foggy is shaky in spots but comes into his own with Nelson vs Murdock episode. I honestly feel Vincent D’Onofrio is award worthy in his performance. You could argue he tends to overact, but I see it fitting the character. And I was honestly impressed with Charlie Cox. Not to mention Rosario Dawson who is always great.
The first four episodes of Daredevil were so brutal. After that, they weren’t so bad. But Daredevil in the comics, well, lately, is a very dark character. They seem to have drawn a lot off of the Bendis and Maleev Marvel Knights line. It’s a good series, but even it is not top 100 worthy at this early stage, IMO. However, it is a good quality show with good writing, directing, and acting.
Yea, sorry man, there is NO WAY that your argument of Daredevil having bad acting holds water. You can have your other arguments of style and tone but the acting is almost not even debatable.
I don’t see the reason why Daredevil should have to fit some kind of ‘marvel’ mold though. Why can’t the more ‘street’ level superheroes in the universe have a more gritty or mature tone? Always made a ton of sense to me actually.
I could get on board with the street level superhero theme, absolutely. That’s what I was hoping it would be. But what I took from it was a Blade Runner pastiche in terms of tone and a Batman style obsession with close quarters combat. Not to say that it’s a bad thing, and if you and many others enjoyed it, that’s great. To each his own. What I must say is that this forum that you guys have created for this conversation is terrific. You’d never get this amount of level headed discussion on imdb!
Thanks! Loving the conversations as well! And ultimately that is the whole point of doing these things in the first place! So, I guess, mission accomplished!!
I understand the violence argument too. I did get the sense at times Marvel was trying to be too edgy with Daredevil just cause they could.
Interesting, I’m not sure if any of the Superhero Shows are great enough to make the Top 100, but Daredevil for me has the best argument. I really love that show.
Nice!
Mission Accomplished.
Please
I wouldn’t call Arrow or Flash bad shows. I like them well enough. Flash more than Arrow, although Flash season two hasn’t been what I hoped. I do agree Daredevil is in another category compared to them though.
Yes Dardevil is better than Arrow.Flash though is a lot different of a show. I’d more so compare Flash to AOS or Super Girl. Which its better than both by a bunch.
I hate how this is the thing geeks have to do. Is put these shows against one another. Daredevil is on Netflix so it can do so much more than Arrow and Flash. So its unfair to compare them. Arrow and Flash have censors, ratings, and the CW figure heads they have to make happy. Look at what happens when Marvel has those same requirements. They give us Agents of SHIELD>
Yes but there are ways to do both. You can make a good network Superhero show. Look at the original Superman show in the 50’s, Batman, or Incredible Hulk. They all were great for their time and even better than a show like Arrow for my money.
Absolutely!
Isn’t that the point though. I’d rather argue over stuff like this than politics or sports.
Ehh…I like them all. Seriously though we can talk all day over which one is great good or bad, and I’m just here loving how awesome it is to be a geek right now. And Jessica Jones comes out tomorrow!
So much to say I don’t know where to start. First Community way way too low. Top 50 for sure. Great seeing Silicon Valley. Part of me wants to argue it should be higher but I get its only two seasons so maybe too soon to say.
Regarding the Cosby Show. I was never the biggest fan of that show to begin with as a kid. So I don’t have an issue with it being where it is. With that said I don’t think someone’s personal life shouldn’t impact where a show falls. Reason I have an issue with the WWE erasing Chris Beniot from everything.
I agree with you on Community. Much too low. Flip that and Big Bang, then remove Big Bang altogether and you might have it right.
Man you can’t get over how much you hate that show can you. At least we can agree on Community though. So we have that.
You hate that show don’t you.
I’m usually one to say a new show like Mr. Robot should not be on a list like this but I have to agree with it. It is probably the best TV Show to hit television this year by far! Has a solid story, based on real world possibilities, a show brought out to the world at a perfect time; and the cast is perfect! From the very first episode of Mr Robot it keeps you on the edge of your seat. It’s one of the first shows made on technology where they sort of spoke some truthful words within the computer world. Now of course some of the people in the show you could tell they didn’t use smartphones in real life and they didn’t fulfill their character as well but for the most part great job. Mr Robot’s only flaw that I really got annoyed with was the computer language and communication. Being that I’m a programmer the terms used on standard computer conversation are nothing like in the show, especially every other word being FTP (File Transfer Protocol); but of courivse Hackers featuring Angelina Jolie took us through the computer world with cool images in a computer screensaver.
Same thing with True Detective and Fargo. Fargo has been near perfect and True Detective season one blew me away. I went in not wanting to buy into the hype but I did.
I would have put Shield higher. Top 40 in my book. It maybe my favorite Cop Drama. I have not watched Justified. Now I have another reason too.
Do wish we got more classic shows. Glad to see Gunsmoke, Happy Days, and Dick Van Dyke.
I’m sure the more clasic shows will show up in Parts 3-4 :-)
Ultimately the goal should be to have shows on that deserve it. New, old, or current.
Agreed!!!!!
Yes I do wish classic shows got more love, we’ll see how the list plays out though. I’m was wondering what people would think having a lot of more recent shows on the countdown.
Well for me when I see a list after a major movie comes out like say Mission Impossible or Fast and the Furious and people make a list of the best action movies of all time and its on it I scoff at the notion. Mostly cause they don’t tend to deserve it. Sometimes you just know though. You know after watching a movie, reading a book, or whatever you witness something so much better than anything else it is around. That happened with Mr. Robot for me. I watched every episode at least three times and will do it even more when the Blu Ray comes out.
My thoughts. Not really just thought it was funny,
I literally just LOUDLY CACKLED for 5 minutes!!!!
I think they’re both nuts. Arrow and Daredevil are equally bad in different ways.
Well to say Daredevil is bad is ridiculous then to say its equal with Arrow is an entire level of nuts. Daredevil is one of the best things Marvel and or DC has ever done. That’s not just me cause across the board it has been highly rated by everyone from IGN to The AV Club that usually hates superhero stuff.
If you don’t like it that’s your right, but to say its bad without giving a reason is a little much.
That’s absolutely fine. My reasons are as follows.
I can say Daredevil is bad if I want. It’s my opinion. I found it cliched as all hell, poorly shot, poorly acted and violent just for the sake of being violent. I’m not prudish in relation to violence, but the tone of it is way out of line with the rest of the Marvel Universe. I imagine that Jessica Jones will follow the same path It felt like a fan film where someone wanted to make a “gritty” take on the material.
I didn’t say it was equal to Arrow. I think equally as bad, but in different ways. Arrow started off okay, but went downhill fast. It suffers from an overly convoluted plot, a “Lost” style obsession with constant flashbacks and a 24 episode season which results in a shocking amount of filler. Stephen Amell is really good, but the rest of the cast are a major let down. I also have issues with the loose nature of how DC relates their movie/TV universes, which is not at all.
But as I said, that’s just my opinion.
I have to disagree with the poorly shot argument. I don’t see that at all, especially when it comes to the fight choreography I feel its shot rather well. From the infamous hallway scene to the underrated Taxi exchange in the following episode.
I can kinda of see the violence argument, but Daredevil is a type of character where violence plays a huge role in who he is. Being the normal man (compared to other superheros) and feeling the effects of that. And Wilson Fisk too, the use of violence with his character is vital to demonstrate his fractured psyche and why he is such a destructive force. I can’t think of a moment when violence was just used for violence sake.
With the acting again I can’t agree. Elend Henson as Foggy is shaky in spots but comes into his own with Nelson vs Murdock episode. I honestly feel Vincent D’Onofrio is award worthy in his performance. You could argue he tends to overact, but I see it fitting the character. And I was honestly impressed with Charlie Cox. Not to mention Rosario Dawson who is always great.
The first four episodes of Daredevil were so brutal. After that, they weren’t so bad. But Daredevil in the comics, well, lately, is a very dark character. They seem to have drawn a lot off of the Bendis and Maleev Marvel Knights line. It’s a good series, but even it is not top 100 worthy at this early stage, IMO. However, it is a good quality show with good writing, directing, and acting.
Yea, sorry man, there is NO WAY that your argument of Daredevil having bad acting holds water. You can have your other arguments of style and tone but the acting is almost not even debatable.
I don’t see the reason why Daredevil should have to fit some kind of ‘marvel’ mold though. Why can’t the more ‘street’ level superheroes in the universe have a more gritty or mature tone? Always made a ton of sense to me actually.
I could get on board with the street level superhero theme, absolutely. That’s what I was hoping it would be. But what I took from it was a Blade Runner pastiche in terms of tone and a Batman style obsession with close quarters combat. Not to say that it’s a bad thing, and if you and many others enjoyed it, that’s great. To each his own. What I must say is that this forum that you guys have created for this conversation is terrific. You’d never get this amount of level headed discussion on imdb!
Thanks! Loving the conversations as well! And ultimately that is the whole point of doing these things in the first place! So, I guess, mission accomplished!!
I understand the violence argument too. I did get the sense at times Marvel was trying to be too edgy with Daredevil just cause they could.
Interesting, I’m not sure if any of the Superhero Shows are great enough to make the Top 100, but Daredevil for me has the best argument. I really love that show.
Nice!
Mission Accomplished.
Please
I wouldn’t call Arrow or Flash bad shows. I like them well enough. Flash more than Arrow, although Flash season two hasn’t been what I hoped. I do agree Daredevil is in another category compared to them though.
Yes Dardevil is better than Arrow.Flash though is a lot different of a show. I’d more so compare Flash to AOS or Super Girl. Which its better than both by a bunch.
I hate how this is the thing geeks have to do. Is put these shows against one another. Daredevil is on Netflix so it can do so much more than Arrow and Flash. So its unfair to compare them. Arrow and Flash have censors, ratings, and the CW figure heads they have to make happy. Look at what happens when Marvel has those same requirements. They give us Agents of SHIELD>
Yes but there are ways to do both. You can make a good network Superhero show. Look at the original Superman show in the 50’s, Batman, or Incredible Hulk. They all were great for their time and even better than a show like Arrow for my money.
Absolutely!
That’s nothing new though. Same thing with the movies. Look how people compare Avengers vs Dark Knight and they are nothing alike.
Isn’t that the point though. I’d rather argue over stuff like this than politics or sports.
Ehh…I like them all. Seriously though we can talk all day over which one is great good or bad, and I’m just here loving how awesome it is to be a geek right now. And Jessica Jones comes out tomorrow!
I was wondering if we’d get something like this. I have to say though for me Arrow is a lot higher than it should be. Personally it’s not a top 100 show in my eyes. I like it enough but considering how much great TV is out there don’t see Arrow making the cut.
Oh I don’t really disagree. It was more of a joke than anything.
HAHAHAHHAHA
Nice! I loved the first two seasons of Arrow, and the first 1/3 or so of season 3 was decent, but as much as I personally like the show, it is not deserving of even being on the top 100, honestly. It did not make my list.
I think its deserving of Top 100 or at least in the conversation. Look how it spawned all the comic shows we are getting now. This season has also been really good
I’m usually one to say a new show like Mr. Robot should not be on a list like this but I have to agree with it. It is probably the best TV Show to hit television this year by far! Has a solid story, based on real world possibilities, a show brought out to the world at a perfect time; and the cast is perfect! From the very first episode of Mr Robot it keeps you on the edge of your seat. It’s one of the first shows made on technology where they sort of spoke some truthful words within the computer world. Now of course some of the people in the show you could tell they didn’t use smartphones in real life and they didn’t fulfill their character as well but for the most part great job. Mr Robot’s only flaw that I really got annoyed with was the computer language and communication. Being that I’m a programmer the terms used on standard computer conversation are nothing like in the show, especially every other word being FTP (File Transfer Protocol); but of courivse Hackers featuring Angelina Jolie took us through the computer world with cool images in a computer screensaver.
Same thing with True Detective and Fargo. Fargo has been near perfect and True Detective season one blew me away. I went in not wanting to buy into the hype but I did.
I would have put Shield higher. Top 40 in my book. It maybe my favorite Cop Drama. I have not watched Justified. Now I have another reason too.
Do wish we got more classic shows. Glad to see Gunsmoke, Happy Days, and Dick Van Dyke.
I’m sure the more clasic shows will show up in Parts 3-4 :-)
Ultimately the goal should be to have shows on that deserve it. New, old, or current.
Agreed!!!!!
Yes I do wish classic shows got more love, we’ll see how the list plays out though. I’m was wondering what people would think having a lot of more recent shows on the countdown.
Well for me when I see a list after a major movie comes out like say Mission Impossible or Fast and the Furious and people make a list of the best action movies of all time and its on it I scoff at the notion. Mostly cause they don’t tend to deserve it. Sometimes you just know though. You know after watching a movie, reading a book, or whatever you witness something so much better than anything else it is around. That happened with Mr. Robot for me. I watched every episode at least three times and will do it even more when the Blu Ray comes out.
I don’t see the argument for Cosby Show as a Top 10 Show. I wouldn’t even call it a Top 10 Sitcom. Seinfeld, All in the Family, I Love Lucy, Honeymooners, Taxi, Cheers, Roseanne, Mash, The Andy Griffith Show,
Arrested Development, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Fraiser, and if you count it The Simpsons I would put ahead of Cosby. And that’s not because Cosby is a monster.
Some of the sitcoms you listed I would be above Cosby like Seinfeld, All in the Family, I love Lucy, and M*A*S*H although I don’t really consider that a sitcom. I don’t think its absurd to argue it’s a Top 10 Show. Like I said more top 25 for me, but I do think there is an argument to make for it.
MASH is considered a sitcom by most people. It won Emmy’s for best comedy series not drama.
True. You got me there. That was my mistake. For some reason the term sitcom doesn’t fit when I think M*A*S*H. Fore me a sitcom tends not to have drama mixed it. IT would be like calling Wonder Years a sitcom. Maybe based on awards category you can argue it but based on what the genre usually has I don’t know.
Actually just because a show wins a Comedy award does not mean it was also a Situational Comedy in the television sense of the term. I suppose you can make that argument but you could easily make the argument against it as well.
I would like to see that argument. A sitcom is a show that is on television regularly and that is about a group of characters who are involved in different funny situations. That describes MASH to me. Could also include how many Best SItcoms of all time lists it has been on. A lot of sitcoms have drama too.
Okay, a situation comedy, is just that, a show that presents a continuously running situation, and then presents the material in a comedic manner, usually it’s a half-hour, not always, but- the important thing is the comedic part. Comedy is not just, outlandish, trying to make us laugh, the worst of sitcoms cliches. Like-eh, what was that show within the show on the first season of “The Comeback”? Like, that’s the cliche of sitcoms, that thing. Comedy is more elaborate than that, from comedy of manners to-eh sex farce, from “Nurse Jackie” to-eh, “Three’s Company”. So, “M*A*S*H” is a continuous situation, and it’s a dark comedy. Same with “The Wonder Years”, continuous situation and it’s a coming-of-age comedy, doesn’t matter what the situation is, or even if it seems like it’s going for one over the other, what they actually are doing is what matters. (If there’s exceptions, it might be either “Louie” and “The Jack Benny Program”, because they play fast-and-loose with the continuous situation aspect, but it’s still there in both cases [and otherwise there’s no other term to describe them]) I know we’re in this era of “dramedies”, or whatever, but comedy and drama has always been mixed together, even in television. “Bonanza” has episodes that are just slapstick, I mean, every decent show goes through both, but the predominant intention is what separates it. I know the TV academy is confusing this lately, but-eh, think of a show like “In Treatment”, or even better “Dragnet” those are half-hour show that nobody would ever call a sitcom, they’re not trying to make us laugh or even chuckle, even if some of the ’67 “Dragnet” is funny in a “Reefer Madness” kind of way. Meanwhile, “Desperate Housewives” is clearly a comedy, it’s basically a satire of “Knots Landing”, it’s our generation’s “Soap”. The only real difference is the intentional slant, but even if it isn’t obvious or clear that it’s comedic, it’s still comedic, and as long as it’s a continuous situation, it’s a sitcom.
Yea, have to disagree with you 100%. Many of those are completely different types of shows and some aren’t even sitcoms. Cosby is one of the most influential sitcoms in the history of television and easily one of the most successful ones as well. Very deserving of being Top 10/Top 20 material.
What is influential about it? It didn’t do anything with the format of a sitcom that wasn’t done before. It didn’t address issues to the level of a show like Good Times.
It only won 6 Emmy’s and never a major category. Cheers won many more awards in the 80’s. Modern Family and 30 Rock won many more awards than the Cosby Show did during its run.
If you don’t see how it was influential on a a societal/cultural level than I’m not sure anything I say will change that. There are literally documentaries/specials dedicated to this entire idea out there. I will try to dig up a few for you to watch.
There are documentaries about Troll II as well. Doesn’t mean much for me. Jersey Shore has cultural influences as well. Doesn’t make it good.
I didn’t even think whether the Cosby show was upper echelon and influential was debatable, this is mind boggling to me
How can you put The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Arrested Development,, Taxi, and The Andy Griffith Show above Cosby? Come on man. You can’t. I like those shows but Cosby is on another level.
That’s a good list of quality TV shows, and I expect to see the ones we haven’t seen on the list so far in the top 50. I would hope so, anyway.
We are now questioning the Cosby Show being a great show. Wow. I have seen everything. This opinion didn’t exist 5 years ago. It was in the top echelon forever.
I will defend the show til I die on the merits of it’s content alone, not what anything the actors did off screen…. as I’ve said already on various podcasts yes Cosby is a monster, but that to me is separate from what the show did for kids growing up in the 80s.
Agreed 100%!!
My point exactly!!!!! THISSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was wondering if we’d get something like this. I have to say though for me Arrow is a lot higher than it should be. Personally it’s not a top 100 show in my eyes. I like it enough but considering how much great TV is out there don’t see Arrow making the cut.
Oh I don’t really disagree. It was more of a joke than anything.
A little too much current TV for my taste. Mr. Robot? Okay..maybe…after two more season. Now way too soon to judge that against shows that haven’t been airing for 30 years.
I’ll be asking this question on Part 3 when we record wednesday….. would you rather see the curent TV this early or later? See for me seeing current tv in the bottom 50 is fine. Top 50?? well it’ll depend on the show. I hope you’ll still listen to see where it all goes…
Oh yea, I’m not going to stopped listening. Still curious to see what we see in the final top 50.
Missed you and Steve (well, for some of it) on this record.
I’d rather see older shows in the top 50 for 2 reasons. Firstly, new shows have the benefit of “flavour of the month” syndrome, which tends to skew people’s judgement. Secondly, the shows regarded as the best of all time should have some longevity to them. I know that’s not entirely the case with the show that I voted number 1, but every generation has an exception that deserves it’s “instant classic” status.
Have you seen Mr. Robot? Cause I have and man I was blown away.
I saw most of it….. I need to rewatch, but loved what I was seeing with Mr. Robot.
Agreed. I have seen the first several episodes and I agree it is a quality show with some intelligent writing. But I lump it in with shows like True Detective that are just too new to judge as a whole at this point.
The too soon argument is a shaky one for me. What’s the breaking point? Five years? Is that much going to change in that time? Has there been something that has received that great of praise that has fallen that far? I get it more with Mr. Robot that just ended, but True Detective and Fargo have debuted over a year ago and now have two seasons. I get it to some point as TV is more of a marathon than a sprint but if your 10 season show can’t get to the level of something like Fargo and TD did in one I’m not going to place you higher because your show is older and was on for longer.
I understand, but for me, it’s too early to tell. Two seasons is still questionable for judging a series in its infancy as “greatest of all-time”. It has the potential to be. And I would certainly put it on other lists, but looking at the entire list of TV shows spanning decades that were eligible for this list, there are a lot of good TV shows that will easily fill up a top 100 list, and I just can’t consider a show that has been on for one or two seasons as being in that best of all-time category at such an early stage. It’s not about how many seasons it has necessarily. There are several factors to consider, and a proven track record is one. A “greatest of all-time” athlete doesn’t get that title for having one good game or one good season. It is a culmination of their work that makes that determination. It doesn’t mean Mr. Robot would have to come to completion. It doesn’t mean it would take 4 or 5 years. It’s subjective, of course. It is a good show, and one of the most talked about of this past year. In my opinion, it needs more time before we start lumping it in with the best shows of all-time.
You make a ton of good points here. Many of the baseball players who had one or two of the greatest seasons ever are not in the best all time discussion, think about Bo Jackson!!
I don’t know about that. Bo Jackson is often considered one of the best running backs of all time due to the impact had on the sport when he was in it. The amount of seasons tends to me nothing to me. In sports how long a player is around is due to the player’s skill or health,while in TV how many seasons a TV show gets often has nothing to do with the quality of the show.
There are too many great shows that have one or two seasons, and too many average shows that have e seven plus season. Not to mention the amount of TV shows that are designed for only two seasons.
In its one season True Detective was better than Law & Order in twenty seasons in every artistic standpoint. So for me its an easy choice for what get ranked higher
Difference of opinion I guess and what you value when ranking a show. I was talking baseball not football where life spans are shorter for running backs anyways. Personally I would rank law and order higher on surface value but that’s just because I haven’t seen true detective
I guess another way to look at it is, would you give a certain Pitcher the Cy Young for an amazing second of the season compared to someone who was very good for the entire season.
Its funny because I looked at my rankings and I’m a liar cause I ranked Law & Order higher than True Detective. (Sorry I looked at a lot of lists so its so I get confused over which is actually mine).Did rank TD higher than NYPD Blue though.
Yes, definitely been there with the confusing of lists after you have poured over dozens of them in preparation to making this whole thing take off!
A few factors I would consider for shows on this list are: cultural impact, longevity & resonance (not longevity in season runs, but in the public conscience…think Firefly, which is STILL talked about even though it had one season, or Star Trek, which was also short-lived), iconic characters, writing, acting, style, etc. and I can’t say at this point whether 2, 5 or 10 years from now if shows that have been on for a year or two will still be discussed, have had a cultural impact, etc.. I agree. They may be of better ‘quality’ than other shows, current and older, but judging based on what you enjoyed more or considered a higher-caliber of quality for such a short term is your prerogative, but considering a lot of other factors, it just couldn’t make the cut for me.
I could see that, but couldn’t a current show also have cultural impact? Look at House of Cards for example. It help legitimize an entire new platform of television, there aren’t many shows that can claim that. Maybe Sopranos and what it did for HBO. Also Orange is the New Black has received acclaim for the impact for the way it portrays women, especially woman with different sexual orientations. True Detective was one of the most talked about shows when it was released, and it along with Fargo began to popularize the method of anthology television series once gain.
Also who is to say being talked about is equal to quality. Is Gilligan’s Island a greatest show of all time? It’s certainty iconic but quality wise I’m not sure. I understand its a factor, but again I feel there are shows that are new and current that can also be included in the factors you are mentioning.
For me being in the public consciences wasn’t a huge factor when I’m ranking a show. Influence? Sure. Impact on the genre. No doubt. But there are a lot of great classic shows that aren’t in the public consciences that I included because of their quality. So for me personally if I’m not going to use it as a knock for classic shows I won’t do it for new shows either.
It may sound like all my list was current stuff, but it there weren’t many shows I ranked that debuted in the last year or two. True Detective might be the only one. I did have a good deal of shows that debut within the last three or four years.
I could see that. It’s hard to judge a show that is so recent I grant you, but you could also argue classic shows often go simply on reputation and not actually quality. The classic placing something on a list because its expected and not asking if it was actually that good or analyzing it with great detail. So I don’t buy the argument its too soon to judge something. This argument wasn’t made when Toy Story 3 was so high on our Animated Movies list even though it was a year old. Greatness very rarely, if ever fades. Is a show like Mr. Robot greatness? I can’t say as I have not seen enough. Maybe . I would argue many of the new shows like True Detective are.
We also live in a world when TV and movies are more scrutinized than ever, and universal approval is super rare. For a show to get the praise True Detective, Mr. Robot, Fargo, etc.. you have to earn.’
I don’t need three more years to know Veep and Silicon Valley are better comedies than most shows like Big Bang Theory, or many other comedies that came before.
I don’t see the argument for Cosby Show as a Top 10 Show. I wouldn’t even call it a Top 10 Sitcom. Seinfeld, All in the Family, I Love Lucy, Honeymooners, Taxi, Cheers, Roseanne, Mash, The Andy Griffith Show,
Arrested Development, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Fraiser, and if you count it The Simpsons I would put ahead of Cosby. And that’s not because Cosby is a monster.
Some of the sitcoms you listed I would be above Cosby like Seinfeld, All in the Family, I love Lucy, and M*A*S*H although I don’t really consider that a sitcom. I don’t think its absurd to argue it’s a Top 10 Show. Like I said more top 25 for me, but I do think there is an argument to make for it.
MASH is considered a sitcom by most people. It won Emmy’s for best comedy series not drama.
True. You got me there. That was my mistake. For some reason the term sitcom doesn’t fit when I think M*A*S*H. Fore me a sitcom tends not to have drama mixed it. IT would be like calling Wonder Years a sitcom. Maybe based on awards category you can argue it but based on what the genre usually has I don’t know.
Actually just because a show wins a Comedy award does not mean it was also a Situational Comedy in the television sense of the term. I suppose you can make that argument but you could easily make the argument against it as well.
I would like to see that argument. A sitcom is a show that is on television regularly and that is about a group of characters who are involved in different funny situations. That describes MASH to me. Could also include how many Best SItcoms of all time lists it has been on. A lot of sitcoms have drama too.
Okay, a situation comedy, is just that, a show that presents a continuously running situation, and then presents the material in a comedic manner, usually it’s a half-hour, not always, but- the important thing is the comedic part. Comedy is not just, outlandish, trying to make us laugh, the worst of sitcoms cliches. Like-eh, what was that show within the show on the first season of “The Comeback”? Like, that’s the cliche of sitcoms, that thing. Comedy is more elaborate than that, from comedy of manners to-eh sex farce, from “Nurse Jackie” to-eh, “Three’s Company”. So, “M*A*S*H” is a continuous situation, and it’s a dark comedy. Same with “The Wonder Years”, continuous situation and it’s a coming-of-age comedy, doesn’t matter what the situation is, or even if it seems like it’s going for one over the other, what they actually are doing is what matters. (If there’s exceptions, it might be either “Louie” and “The Jack Benny Program”, because they play fast-and-loose with the continuous situation aspect, but it’s still there in both cases [and otherwise there’s no other term to describe them]) I know we’re in this era of “dramedies”, or whatever, but comedy and drama has always been mixed together, even in television. “Bonanza” has episodes that are just slapstick, I mean, every decent show goes through both, but the predominant intention is what separates it. I know the TV academy is confusing this lately, but-eh, think of a show like “In Treatment”, or even better “Dragnet” those are half-hour show that nobody would ever call a sitcom, they’re not trying to make us laugh or even chuckle, even if some of the ’67 “Dragnet” is funny in a “Reefer Madness” kind of way. Meanwhile, “Desperate Housewives” is clearly a comedy, it’s basically a satire of “Knots Landing”, it’s our generation’s “Soap”. The only real difference is the intentional slant, but even if it isn’t obvious or clear that it’s comedic, it’s still comedic, and as long as it’s a continuous situation, it’s a sitcom.
Yea, have to disagree with you 100%. Many of those are completely different types of shows and some aren’t even sitcoms. Cosby is one of the most influential sitcoms in the history of television and easily one of the most successful ones as well. Very deserving of being Top 10/Top 20 material.
What is influential about it? It didn’t do anything with the format of a sitcom that wasn’t done before. It didn’t address issues to the level of a show like Good Times.
It only won 6 Emmy’s and never a major category. Cheers won many more awards in the 80’s. Modern Family and 30 Rock won many more awards than the Cosby Show did during its run.
If you don’t see how it was influential on a a societal/cultural level than I’m not sure anything I say will change that. There are literally documentaries/specials dedicated to this entire idea out there. I will try to dig up a few for you to watch.
There are documentaries about Troll II as well. Doesn’t mean much for me. Jersey Shore has cultural influences as well. Doesn’t make it good.
I didn’t even think whether the Cosby show was upper echelon and influential was debatable, this is mind boggling to me
How can you put The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Arrested Development,, Taxi, and The Andy Griffith Show above Cosby? Come on man. You can’t. I like those shows but Cosby is on another level.
That’s a good list of quality TV shows, and I expect to see the ones we haven’t seen on the list so far in the top 50. I would hope so, anyway.
We are now questioning the Cosby Show being a great show. Wow. I have seen everything. This opinion didn’t exist 5 years ago. It was in the top echelon forever.
I will defend the show til I die on the merits of it’s content alone, not what anything the actors did off screen…. as I’ve said already on various podcasts yes Cosby is a monster, but that to me is separate from what the show did for kids growing up in the 80s.
Agreed 100%!!
My point exactly!!!!! THISSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Cosby Show along with `Family Ties, redefined television in the eighties. It centered entirely on a successful African American family – that was something rare back then. And the thing that was good about the show was that unlike some television programs, `The Cosby Show’ did not try to be anything special; it didn’t try to shout out. It didn’t say, `Hey, we’re a show all about a black family!’ It treated itself just like any other show on television, and that is what is so good about it. Should be much, much higher.
Part of me wishes Arrow landed higher. I know, I know if you are thinking objectively its not a high art show. For me though its a lot of fun.
Great to see Key and Peele. Easily one of the funniest shows on TV by a long shot.
Full House…blah. Super corny. Doesn’t belong. Put Family Matters in its place.
Family Matters was not much better. They are both super duper corny.
Agreed. These shows are not in the upper echelon of TV series.
Oh yes of course. My point was if you are picking those types of shows I’d rather see Family Matters.
A little too much current TV for my taste. Mr. Robot? Okay..maybe…after two more season. Now way too soon to judge that against shows that haven’t been airing for 30 years.
I’ll be asking this question on Part 3 when we record wednesday….. would you rather see the curent TV this early or later? See for me seeing current tv in the bottom 50 is fine. Top 50?? well it’ll depend on the show. I hope you’ll still listen to see where it all goes…
Oh yea, I’m not going to stopped listening. Still curious to see what we see in the final top 50.
Missed you and Steve (well, for some of it) on this record.
I’d rather see older shows in the top 50 for 2 reasons. Firstly, new shows have the benefit of “flavour of the month” syndrome, which tends to skew people’s judgement. Secondly, the shows regarded as the best of all time should have some longevity to them. I know that’s not entirely the case with the show that I voted number 1, but every generation has an exception that deserves it’s “instant classic” status.
Have you seen Mr. Robot? Cause I have and man I was blown away.
I saw most of it….. I need to rewatch, but loved what I was seeing with Mr. Robot.
Agreed. I have seen the first several episodes and I agree it is a quality show with some intelligent writing. But I lump it in with shows like True Detective that are just too new to judge as a whole at this point.
The too soon argument is a shaky one for me. What’s the breaking point? Five years? Is that much going to change in that time? Has there been something that has received that great of praise that has fallen that far? I get it more with Mr. Robot that just ended, but True Detective and Fargo have debuted over a year ago and now have two seasons. I get it to some point as TV is more of a marathon than a sprint but if your 10 season show can’t get to the level of something like Fargo and TD did in one I’m not going to place you higher because your show is older and was on for longer.
I understand, but for me, it’s too early to tell. Two seasons is still questionable for judging a series in its infancy as “greatest of all-time”. It has the potential to be. And I would certainly put it on other lists, but looking at the entire list of TV shows spanning decades that were eligible for this list, there are a lot of good TV shows that will easily fill up a top 100 list, and I just can’t consider a show that has been on for one or two seasons as being in that best of all-time category at such an early stage. It’s not about how many seasons it has necessarily. There are several factors to consider, and a proven track record is one. A “greatest of all-time” athlete doesn’t get that title for having one good game or one good season. It is a culmination of their work that makes that determination. It doesn’t mean Mr. Robot would have to come to completion. It doesn’t mean it would take 4 or 5 years. It’s subjective, of course. It is a good show, and one of the most talked about of this past year. In my opinion, it needs more time before we start lumping it in with the best shows of all-time.
You make a ton of good points here. Many of the baseball players who had one or two of the greatest seasons ever are not in the best all time discussion, think about Bo Jackson!!
I don’t know about that. Bo Jackson is often considered one of the best running backs of all time due to the impact had on the sport when he was in it. The amount of seasons tends to me nothing to me. In sports how long a player is around is due to the player’s skill or health,while in TV how many seasons a TV show gets often has nothing to do with the quality of the show.
There are too many great shows that have one or two seasons, and too many average shows that have e seven plus season. Not to mention the amount of TV shows that are designed for only two seasons.
In its one season True Detective was better than Law & Order in twenty seasons in every artistic standpoint. So for me its an easy choice for what get ranked higher
Difference of opinion I guess and what you value when ranking a show. I was talking baseball not football where life spans are shorter for running backs anyways. Personally I would rank law and order higher on surface value but that’s just because I haven’t seen true detective
I guess another way to look at it is, would you give a certain Pitcher the Cy Young for an amazing second of the season compared to someone who was very good for the entire season.
Its funny because I looked at my rankings and I’m a liar cause I ranked Law & Order higher than True Detective. (Sorry I looked at a lot of lists so its so I get confused over which is actually mine).Did rank TD higher than NYPD Blue though.
Yes, definitely been there with the confusing of lists after you have poured over dozens of them in preparation to making this whole thing take off!
I get what you are saying, and think its fine if for you personally you can’t list something that is recent. For me the issue with that will always be when does it no longer become too recent? Unless there is a definitive answer to that question I personally can’t discount a show based on date of release. I
Would I rank True Detective in my Top 10? No, because considering other factors I couldn’t put it there. Top 20, Top 30 for sure because I don’t think I could name 70 shows that were better than it at its height..
A few factors I would consider for shows on this list are: cultural impact, longevity & resonance (not longevity in season runs, but in the public conscience…think Firefly, which is STILL talked about even though it had one season, or Star Trek, which was also short-lived), iconic characters, writing, acting, style, etc. and I can’t say at this point whether 2, 5 or 10 years from now if shows that have been on for a year or two will still be discussed, have had a cultural impact, etc.. I agree. They may be of better ‘quality’ than other shows, current and older, but judging based on what you enjoyed more or considered a higher-caliber of quality for such a short term is your prerogative, but considering a lot of other factors, it just couldn’t make the cut for me.
I could see that, but couldn’t a current show also have cultural impact? Look at House of Cards for example. It help legitimize an entire new platform of television, there aren’t many shows that can claim that. Maybe Sopranos and what it did for HBO. Also Orange is the New Black has received acclaim for the impact for the way it portrays women, especially woman with different sexual orientations. True Detective was one of the most talked about shows when it was released, and it along with Fargo began to popularize the method of anthology television series once gain.
Also who is to say being talked about is equal to quality. Is Gilligan’s Island a greatest show of all time? It’s certainty iconic but quality wise I’m not sure. I understand its a factor, but again I feel there are shows that are new and current that can also be included in the factors you are mentioning.
For me being in the public consciences wasn’t a huge factor when I’m ranking a show. Influence? Sure. Impact on the genre. No doubt. But there are a lot of great classic shows that aren’t in the public consciences that I included because of their quality. So for me personally if I’m not going to use it as a knock for classic shows I won’t do it for new shows either.
It may sound like all my list was current stuff, but it there weren’t many shows I ranked that debuted in the last year or two. True Detective might be the only one. I did have a good deal of shows that debut within the last three or four years.
I could see that. It’s hard to judge a show that is so recent I grant you, but you could also argue classic shows often go simply on reputation and not actually quality. The classic placing something on a list because its expected and not asking if it was actually that good or analyzing it with great detail. So I don’t buy the argument its too soon to judge something. This argument wasn’t made when Toy Story 3 was so high on our Animated Movies list even though it was a year old. Greatness very rarely, if ever fades. Is a show like Mr. Robot greatness? I can’t say as I have not seen enough. Maybe . I would argue many of the new shows like True Detective are.
We also live in a world when TV and movies are more scrutinized than ever, and universal approval is super rare. For a show to get the praise True Detective, Mr. Robot, Fargo, etc.. you have to earn.’
I don’t need three more years to know Veep and Silicon Valley are better comedies than most shows like Big Bang Theory, or many other comedies that came before.
The Cosby Show along with `Family Ties, redefined television in the eighties. It centered entirely on a successful African American family – that was something rare back then. And the thing that was good about the show was that unlike some television programs, `The Cosby Show’ did not try to be anything special; it didn’t try to shout out. It didn’t say, `Hey, we’re a show all about a black family!’ It treated itself just like any other show on television, and that is what is so good about it. Should be much, much higher.
Part of me wishes Arrow landed higher. I know, I know if you are thinking objectively its not a high art show. For me though its a lot of fun.
Great to see Key and Peele. Easily one of the funniest shows on TV by a long shot.
Full House…blah. Super corny. Doesn’t belong. Put Family Matters in its place.
Family Matters was not much better. They are both super duper corny.
Agreed. These shows are not in the upper echelon of TV series.
Oh yes of course. My point was if you are picking those types of shows I’d rather see Family Matters.
I’m only halfway through the podcast, but you just wrapped up your discussion of The Cosby Show. First off, I’ll be clear in saying that I never watched it regularly. In fact, I am not sure I have ever seen an entire episode. That said, I still ranked it at #13 on my list. Why? Because I do understand it one of the best TV shows of all time, deserving of being a top ten show, or one close to the top ten due to the quality, which I know about even though I didn’t watch it, it’s cultural significance, the ground it broke at the time, etc.. It only missed the top ten on my list because of the stiff competition there. Like Kevin, I feel it should be higher. And like Kevin, the man…the actor…should be separated from the quality of the show itself. Here’s why.
Movies. TV shows. They’re scripted entertainment played by actors. Actors. Is Tom Cruise the action hero we see in his movies? Is Daniel Craig less of a person because he is not the character James Bond we see in the 007 films? Is Mr. Rogers the gentle man we see on his show? Is Tom Hanks gay because he played a gay man? Or Heath Ledger? Does that tarnish their other work? For some people, yes. Is it fair? No. Does it lessen the quality of their work on screen…or better yet…the quality of their work or the work of the TV show or movies they are in because of the quality of their character? You can say that it does for The Cosby Show because it may have embodied what you thought of his character or how he sold himself in real life. But again, he is an actor. The quality of the show is made up of a lot of other people, including the writers, the other actors, the directors, etc. and to judge that quality based on one actor on the series is wrong. Kevin is right. Pete Rose is still one of the greatest baseball players of all-time, regardless of what he did off the field. Did it tarnish his reputation? Sure. Does it turn some people off? Sure. But you can’t deny he was a great player. Cosby sold that performance. The show was more than just him. The actors are not always who we want them to be in real life. The Cosby Show is still one of the greatest shows of all-time, regardless of how despicable of a character he may be in reality.
There is a difference though between Tom Cruise having crazy views on something and what Bill Cosby has done. The people you mentioned did not break laws or ruin lives the way Cosby has. And he got away for it for so long in large part because of the Cosby Show. The rumors were around for years but no one believed it because of the image Cosby made of himself with the help of his show. His show now is nothing more than exhibit A of hypocrites like Cosby who think they have some god given right to tell others how to behave and act. He used the show to put himself on a pedestal and preach to the world on the way people should act and behave all awhile behaving like a true monster. Would you think differently of a restaurant if you found out it was knowing sell meat contaminated with mad cow? Would you say well the burger was good when I had it so I still put it as one of my favorite restaurants?
My point is that the show itself can stand on its own merits despite the ‘star’s’ indiscretions. Some people will be totally turned off by him and will reject the show for that alone, and that is their prerogative. It happens. For me, unless the show was 100% Cosby being himself and telling you he believes XYZ and then does ABC…then it’s moot. He is an entertainer, comedian, and actor. Comedians get away with saying crazy stuff all of the time. Now granted, Cosby had a pretty clean act from what I understand. He may have misled people, or more accurately, hid his dark side very well, but the show still had a cultural impact, was a huge hit during its day, and is still deserving of one of the greatest shows on TV…despite anyone’s opinion of one man on the show. It’s similar to OJ Simpson. The Naked Gun movies are still very funny and enjoyable movies despite what OJ did in the years that followed. Will some people find those movies less enjoyable or decide not to watch them because he is in them? You betcha. But that doesn’t mean they are of any lesser quality, which is my point.
That comparison of the restaurant doesn’t work because that news directly effects the quality of the product you ate. That would be a better comparison if you found out the Cosby Shows was plagiarized from another less known show.
Okay imagine you walk out of the restaurant and you see the cook is disgusting. That’s the thing with Cosby. The cook is a dirtbag so anything he made is now garbage.
I 100% agree with @timsilvers:disqus on this. Cosby should be on the list and should be higher. The show is great despite the fact the guy is scum.
THIS! Once a TV show or movie or whatever gets made I’m in the opinion that we fans become as big of owners of it as anyone. Yes they created it but we can mold it and make it into so much more. So to apply that to Cosby show I see letting him ruin the show for what he did a mistake. I say we enjoy it, rate it, and like it despite him and what he did. The show it is not his. It is ours.
I don’t disagree with you. I ended up including in my list, but I get if people don’t wish to put it on a list because of what he has done. Should it effect the quality of the show? No. But I’d be lying if I didn’t say it didn’t effect my view on it. And again I don’t have an issue if someone won’t include it because I understand how what he did can have such a large impact and some may feel that by including it its almost a sign of approval or acceptance. Is it? I don’t think so, but I understand completely why many would feel differently.
I’ll star with the good surprises:
Fargo and True Detective making the list. And Fargo betting True Detective which I say is the right call.
Alfred Hitchcock Presents making the Top 100. I love that show a bunch. Own a couple DVDs of it. Did not expect it to make the cut along with Gunsmoke.
With that said cools seeing Westerns being represented with Gunsmoke, Deadwood, and Justified as a more modern Western.
The Tonight show with Johnny Carson making the list. Glad a show like this was included. Hate that they tend to be discounted in all other countdowns. THEY ARE PART OF TV HISTORY!
The Bad Surprises: Big Bang Theory way too low. At the very least should be top 50.
Full House making it higher than Home Improvement? Fresh Prince higher than them both? Don’t know about that. I hope Family Matters doesn’t appear any higher.
The Shield being way too low. For my take one of the best
cop dramas ever.
Key & Peele making it so high. I like that show but don’t think its that much better than most sketch comedies. Prefer something like Mr. Show.
Not sure what to think.
Well with Cosby show I kind of get it. The show was great but just thinking about it makes me feel weird. I could go either where it falls on the list.
Arrow showing up where it did. I love the show don’t get me wrong but I don’t know if it belongs in the same category as something like The Shield, True Detective, or Gunsmoke. For its genre it’s really good so maybe
its deserving since its way better than the comic shows that came before.
Overall nothing too outrageous I don’t agree with. I am very curious where shows like Star Trek TNG, Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones will fall. I am sad though cause I am almost certain one of my current favorite comedies won’t make the cut in The League. If Always Sunny fell already it doesn’t stand much of a
chance.
We debated about including shows like Johnny Carson. But I’m there with you. Don’t see how you can create a list regarding TV and not include some of the biggest TV icons.
I am really liking the countdown. I have not watched much TV. though so I can’t comment on if something is deserving or not. Although Community is one of my all time favorite shows so I do wish it was higher.
I did not know Fargo had a TV series. I’ll have to check it out now.
You should check out Fargo its a great show. Nothing like the movie though. Martin Freeman is phenomenal in the first season.
I haven’t seen it, but I hear good things. Still, a show with only one season being on the list of top 100 TV shows of all time is questionable. And someone having it in their top ten? That’s just wrong.
Top 10 agreed. Top 100. I see it completely. Fantastic show. And season 2 has been better so far.
Great! I wasn’t sure if we would get to show people never heard of. I would highly recommend Fargo. Love that series. Even being one season I say it deserves top 100. Next to True Detective one of the best seasons I’ve seen.
I’m only halfway through the podcast, but you just wrapped up your discussion of The Cosby Show. First off, I’ll be clear in saying that I never watched it regularly. In fact, I am not sure I have ever seen an entire episode. That said, I still ranked it at #13 on my list. Why? Because I do understand it one of the best TV shows of all time, deserving of being a top ten show, or one close to the top ten due to the quality, which I know about even though I didn’t watch it, it’s cultural significance, the ground it broke at the time, etc.. It only missed the top ten on my list because of the stiff competition there. Like Kevin, I feel it should be higher. And like Kevin, the man…the actor…should be separated from the quality of the show itself. Here’s why.
Movies. TV shows. They’re scripted entertainment played by actors. Actors. Is Tom Cruise the action hero we see in his movies? Is Daniel Craig less of a person because he is not the character James Bond we see in the 007 films? Is Mr. Rogers the gentle man we see on his show? Is Tom Hanks gay because he played a gay man? Or Heath Ledger? Does that tarnish their other work? For some people, yes. Is it fair? No. Does it lessen the quality of their work on screen…or better yet…the quality of their work or the work of the TV show or movies they are in because of the quality of their character? You can say that it does for The Cosby Show because it may have embodied what you thought of his character or how he sold himself in real life. But again, he is an actor. The quality of the show is made up of a lot of other people, including the writers, the other actors, the directors, etc. and to judge that quality based on one actor on the series is wrong. Kevin is right. Pete Rose is still one of the greatest baseball players of all-time, regardless of what he did off the field. Did it tarnish his reputation? Sure. Does it turn some people off? Sure. But you can’t deny he was a great player. Cosby sold that performance. The show was more than just him. The actors are not always who we want them to be in real life. The Cosby Show is still one of the greatest shows of all-time, regardless of how despicable of a character he may be in reality.
There is a difference though between Tom Cruise having crazy views on something and what Bill Cosby has done. The people you mentioned did not break laws or ruin lives the way Cosby has. And he got away for it for so long in large part because of the Cosby Show. The rumors were around for years but no one believed it because of the image Cosby made of himself with the help of his show. His show now is nothing more than exhibit A of hypocrites like Cosby who think they have some god given right to tell others how to behave and act. He used the show to put himself on a pedestal and preach to the world on the way people should act and behave all awhile behaving like a true monster. Would you think differently of a restaurant if you found out it was knowing sell meat contaminated with mad cow? Would you say well the burger was good when I had it so I still put it as one of my favorite restaurants?
My point is that the show itself can stand on its own merits despite the ‘star’s’ indiscretions. Some people will be totally turned off by him and will reject the show for that alone, and that is their prerogative. It happens. For me, unless the show was 100% Cosby being himself and telling you he believes XYZ and then does ABC…then it’s moot. He is an entertainer, comedian, and actor. Comedians get away with saying crazy stuff all of the time. Now granted, Cosby had a pretty clean act from what I understand. He may have misled people, or more accurately, hid his dark side very well, but the show still had a cultural impact, was a huge hit during its day, and is still deserving of one of the greatest shows on TV…despite anyone’s opinion of one man on the show. It’s similar to OJ Simpson. The Naked Gun movies are still very funny and enjoyable movies despite what OJ did in the years that followed. Will some people find those movies less enjoyable or decide not to watch them because he is in them? You betcha. But that doesn’t mean they are of any lesser quality, which is my point.
That comparison of the restaurant doesn’t work because that news directly effects the quality of the product you ate. That would be a better comparison if you found out the Cosby Shows was plagiarized from another less known show.
Okay imagine you walk out of the restaurant and you see the cook is disgusting. That’s the thing with Cosby. The cook is a dirtbag so anything he made is now garbage.
I 100% agree with @timsilvers:disqus on this. Cosby should be on the list and should be higher. The show is great despite the fact the guy is scum.
THIS! Once a TV show or movie or whatever gets made I’m in the opinion that we fans become as big of owners of it as anyone. Yes they created it but we can mold it and make it into so much more. So to apply that to Cosby show I see letting him ruin the show for what he did a mistake. I say we enjoy it, rate it, and like it despite him and what he did. The show it is not his. It is ours.
I don’t disagree with you. I ended up including in my list, but I get if people don’t wish to put it on a list because of what he has done. Should it effect the quality of the show? No. But I’d be lying if I didn’t say it didn’t effect my view on it. And again I don’t have an issue if someone won’t include it because I understand how what he did can have such a large impact and some may feel that by including it its almost a sign of approval or acceptance. Is it? I don’t think so, but I understand completely why many would feel differently.
HAHAHAHHAHA
I’ll star with the good surprises:
Fargo and True Detective making the list. And Fargo betting True Detective which I say is the right call.
Alfred Hitchcock Presents making the Top 100. I love that show a bunch. Own a couple DVDs of it. Did not expect it to make the cut along with Gunsmoke.
With that said cools seeing Westerns being represented with Gunsmoke, Deadwood, and Justified as a more modern Western.
The Tonight show with Johnny Carson making the list. Glad a show like this was included. Hate that they tend to be discounted in all other countdowns. THEY ARE PART OF TV HISTORY!
The Bad Surprises: Big Bang Theory way too low. At the very least should be top 50.
Full House making it higher than Home Improvement? Fresh Prince higher than them both? Don’t know about that. I hope Family Matters doesn’t appear any higher.
The Shield being way too low. For my take one of the best
cop dramas ever.
Key & Peele making it so high. I like that show but don’t think its that much better than most sketch comedies. Prefer something like Mr. Show.
Not sure what to think.
Well with Cosby show I kind of get it. The show was great but just thinking about it makes me feel weird. I could go either where it falls on the list.
Arrow showing up where it did. I love the show don’t get me wrong but I don’t know if it belongs in the same category as something like The Shield, True Detective, or Gunsmoke. For its genre it’s really good so maybe
its deserving since its way better than the comic shows that came before.
Overall nothing too outrageous I don’t agree with. I am very curious where shows like Star Trek TNG, Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones will fall. I am sad though cause I am almost certain one of my current favorite comedies won’t make the cut in The League. If Always Sunny fell already it doesn’t stand much of a
chance.
We debated about including shows like Johnny Carson. But I’m there with you. Don’t see how you can create a list regarding TV and not include some of the biggest TV icons.
Nice! I loved the first two seasons of Arrow, and the first 1/3 or so of season 3 was decent, but as much as I personally like the show, it is not deserving of even being on the top 100, honestly. It did not make my list.
I think its deserving of Top 100 or at least in the conversation. Look how it spawned all the comic shows we are getting now. This season has also been really good
I am really liking the countdown. I have not watched much TV. though so I can’t comment on if something is deserving or not. Although Community is one of my all time favorite shows so I do wish it was higher.
I did not know Fargo had a TV series. I’ll have to check it out now.
You should check out Fargo its a great show. Nothing like the movie though. Martin Freeman is phenomenal in the first season.
I haven’t seen it, but I hear good things. Still, a show with only one season being on the list of top 100 TV shows of all time is questionable. And someone having it in their top ten? That’s just wrong.
Top 10 agreed. Top 100. I see it completely. Fantastic show. And season 2 has been better so far.
Great! I wasn’t sure if we would get to show people never heard of. I would highly recommend Fargo. Love that series. Even being one season I say it deserves top 100. Next to True Detective one of the best seasons I’ve seen.
Oh come on. Community was only 74! As somone who hates clichés, shows that try to teach you things, and more than anything ripoffs(like the fact that family guy takes most of its plot lines form old simpsons episodes). but Community is original, and dead-on with every punchline. I love almost everything about it… except for season 6. This show is a true celebration to nerdism and almost all the characters are both lovable as well as irreplaceable. There is a level of excitement that just makes it so addicting to watch that I can watch it over, and over again with the same level of enjoyment. The action is character-driven, wonderfully creative, juvenile without being idiotic, FUN, and refreshingly honest. I don’t think I could’ve picked a better cast, either. So deserves to be higher on the list. Top 50, hell even Top 25.
I’m right there with you. I’m glad it made the list but agree it should be higher
My Top 10 Prediction is still good: 10: 10. Game of Thrones. 9. Daredevil 8. The Sopranos. 7. 24. 6. The Walking Dead. 5. Seinfeld. 4. Mad Men. 3. I Love Lucy 2. Breaking Bad. 1. MASH. After Arrow going down as 52 I am making an adjustment and replacing Daredevil with Friends.
Can’t see MASH topping the list, but I will gladly concede if it does.
Why replace it with Friends exactly?. I like that show but based on what’s been on the show so far I’d say maybe The Office, or one of the HBO comedies.
It was more with Arrow not being in the Top 50 I didn’t think Flash would make it much higher. Friends was at 11 for me so it replaced it.
So AMC would have 3 shows in the Top 10 of all time?
God I HOPE not!
Why is that?
Maybe. They are great shows and they are almost always in the top 10 of lists I have seen.
My Top 10 Prediction is still good: 10: 10. Game of Thrones. 9. Daredevil 8. The Sopranos. 7. 24. 6. The Walking Dead. 5. Seinfeld. 4. Mad Men. 3. I Love Lucy 2. Breaking Bad. 1. MASH. After Arrow going down as 52 I am making an adjustment and replacing Daredevil with Friends.
Can’t see MASH topping the list, but I will gladly concede if it does.
Why replace it with Friends exactly?. I like that show but based on what’s been on the show so far I’d say maybe The Office, or one of the HBO comedies.
It was more with Arrow not being in the Top 50 I didn’t think Flash would make it much higher. Friends was at 11 for me so it replaced it.
So AMC would have 3 shows in the Top 10 of all time?
God I HOPE not!
Why is that?
Maybe. They are great shows and they are almost always in the top 10 of lists I have seen.
Okay, I realized I’m a little late, but computer and family issues, blah, blah, blah, so just looking through the list real quick, I’ll run through 51-75 and go through a few quick thoughts.
“The Dick Van Dyke Show”-way, way, too low, I was the one who had it 8th, and when you go back through television history, the ’60s in general is a weird, and not a great time, especially for sitcoms. It’s still predominantly partially the remnants of the ’50s era cliches, of the family sitcoms, and then there’s a weird attempt to sorta be hip and cool with the mod/hippie era, stuff, like “Batman” which, no shouldn’t have made the list, (plus just weird stuff like “Bewitched”, “The Munsters”, “The Addams Family”, etc.) most of which feels like they don’t get the era (And they usually didn’t) but it’s not until the ’70s when the sitcom finally truly came of age, with the “M*A*S*H”, “All in the Family”, “The Mary Tyler Moore Show”, etc. but the bridge show between those era, is “The Dick Van Dyke Show”. It’s funny as hell, I mean, it’s Carl Reiner, and he worked on with Sid Caesar in the greatest writing room in TV history and he wrote about it, it’s rule #1, write what you know, plus it is more adult and adventurous than anything before and foreshadows the kind of shows that would come later. Even today, that freedom given to Louis C.K. or Tina Fey or Lena Dunham to do what they want and recreate exaggerated views of their life, eh, that goes back to this show more than most anything else. Way too low.
“Arrow”- No, shouldn’t be on there. And honestly I can’t really understand why any superhero show is on here. (Alright, maybe if the Animated “Batman” series is on here, okay, although at this point, it’d be a little too high. Maybe the original “The Incredible Hulk”, if I’m being generous, or “The Greatest American Hero” if I’m in a quirky mood) I mean, even when I like some of these shows, I can’t understand any scenario of putting them in the Top 100, there’s just better shows out there, and this one’s way too early and really not that good anyway.
“Deadwood”-I’ll give it another shot at some point, it’s okay, but honestly it just felt like a Western with more sex and pissing and shitting and whatever, more bodily fluids inserted, no pun intended into it. That genre barely holds up well to begin with, (Although “Justified” might’ve made the list if I had seen more of the series, I’m only two seasons in, forgive me on that one, glad it’s on there) and I don’t really see what made this one different than the rest other than it was HBO-ized.
“The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”-Okay, it holds up. I always more or less tolerated it growing up, ’cause I was waiting to get through it so I could watch “Blossom” (Which also stills holds up incredibly well btw, and fun as hell to show younger “The Big Bang Theory” fans, especially the season two, it freaks them out! That reaction is priceless), but actually it’s too high, but in hindsight, I can see it on here, it’s a really good show.
“Beavis and Butt-Head”-I was more of a “Daria” guy growing up and I think that is the better show of the two, and actually if I was going for a Mike Judge sitcom, “King of the Hill” is probably the best of his animated works. But, it’s still funny, nothing wrong with it, just didn’t make my list.
“True Detective”-Honestly, I didn’t care for the first season of “True Detective” that much. I mean, I got it, it was good, I haven’t seen the second yet, but (Shrugs) I don’t really get what the big deal was. It just seemed a confusing slough to me. I’m a little surprised it’s on here; I guess this season-long new take on anthology series is interesting, as opposed to the classical idea of “The Twilight Zone” “Alfred Hitchcock Presents” (Which I’m glad made the list, I didn’t think it would, I put “The Twilight Zone” on my list really high, but I actually do prefer “AHP” and “Love, American Style” personally, I’m glad one of them got in, I just couldn’t figure out justifying two anthology series on the list, especially when one is so much more influential, but maybe I should’ve), but most of the time, I just felt like it was a lot of things that weren’t really going anywhere.
“Freaks and Geeks”- I know the people involved became big, maybe I’ll look at it again but I always thought this was “The Wonder Years” with characters that weren’t as smart or likable. I found it annoying back when it was on the air. Maybe I’ll take another look, but I don’t get it.
“The Cosby Show”-I got into some trouble just daring to write a blog about Bill Cosby a few months back; (Even though most of what I was writing about was, “Why now, are we caring since we’ve known for years?”) but honestly the reason it didn’t make my ballot, was because, it doesn’t hold up. If this was, Most influential or important TV series, then, absolutely it’s Top 50 and that is apart of it, but even before everybody knew how big a pervert Cosby was, the show is very erratic. There’s some great moments and episodes, brilliant ones even, but most of the time, the show is just awkwardly structured. It’s basically, a few minutes of a family problem, and then the show stops, for five minutes of Bill Cosby, basically doing stand-up, but in the kitchen or something to Phylicia Rashad something contrived, and then, a slight resolution on whatever the problem was before. It’s not as consistent as people remember, and that was by design btw, and not necessarily bad. “Home Improvement” essentially does this, but Tim Allen’s rants are much more intertwined into the episode and relevant, Cosby’s just stops the show in it’s track most of the time, and they’re funny, but, it’s like watching one thing and then getting interrupted and then going back to it. It’s still a great show, but Top 100, is a stretch for me. Top 200, it would’ve definitely found a spot, but yeah, I’d argue it’s not as great as people remember not because of, but despite what’s gone on lately.
“Buffy the Vampire Slayer”- I don’t understand how anybody likes anything Joss Whedon’s ever done. Including and especially this series, shouldn’t be on here. I’ve tried with this one, but watching this to me, all I ever do is yell at the TV, “Stop Being Stupid!” multiple times over. A teenage girl vampire slayer, fine, but why is she so stupid! This is why I can’t stand him, I know it’s aimed for a certain audience, but he goes down to that audience, and doesn’t try to bring them up and that’s a no-no to me, and it’s annoying. Even if I ignore the “You’re a mystical vampire hunter, just take over the damn school or move on, you idiot, stupidity”, it’s still just too frustrating to watch. That, and he constantly, basically invents sudden dramas that just stay there for no reason, other than for the characters to suddenly get over ’cause of something else. I mean, yes, all conflict is essentially that, but he does it so sudden and arbitrarily and let’s it sit there, there’s not even any trying to interweave it in, ugh. I know I’m in the minority on this site, I don’t care, he should know better, he’s worked with talented people, hell, he’s related to talented writers, but unless he’s doing somebody else’s work, like that Shakespeare adaptation, I don’t see how anybody thinks anything he’s done is any good.
“Happy Days”-I had one Garry Marshall show on my list and that was “The Odd Couple” that’s the one that really holds up the best. “Happy Days” is good, I love Fonzi like everybody else, hell, he’s why I have a leather jacket collection but it hasn’t aged that well honestly. It also lasted too long, and it literally jumped the shark, (Which means, “the moment a popular/good TV show becomes unwatchable and will clearly never be as good as it once was btw) eh, I didn’t really see a Top 100 spot for it. Even within the show lineage it’s apart of, I’d probably argue “Love, American Style”, the show it’s spun-off from and “Mork & Mindy” one of it’s many, spinoffs, are better series overall, and maybe even “Laverne & Shirley” too, especially the early seasons of that show we’re better. Great show, I found too many negatives to justify a vote for it though. Again, Top 200, different story.
“Gunsmoke”-I know it lasted twenty years, for numerous reasons, ranging from Sen. Byrd commissioning it to be brought back to CBS President bringing it back even after it was canceled multiple times, canceling “Gilligan’s Island” after it was renewed at one point (Might have been ABC, but I think it’s CBS, someone look that up) but too many of those westerns don’t really hold up anymore, and I do think “Gunsmoke” is among them. Not only cause it lasted too long, but most of those series, really are just captures moments of a bygone era, I had “Maverick” on my ballot, ’cause it’s only one that truly comes off as different and distinctive to me than the rest, at least memorably so. I don’t mind it on the list, probably deserves a spot, but eh,it doesn’t stick out among the genre other than it lasted forever.
“Full House”-I wrote a blog once about how nostalgia is bad once, it’s this kind of crap that’s the reason why I wrote it. It may be remembered but “Full House” doesn’t belong here. Other than the fact that, it’s the first show that show that shows a toddler growing up, and not, like skipping ahead from baby to 5-year-old in a season, there’s really nothing good about this show.
“Community”-Okay, here’s why “Community” shouldn’t be on here, even though it’s funny at times, but Dan Harmon suffers from what I call J.J. Abrams-syndrome, this is where somebody starts out with a great concept or idea for a show, and then, has absolutely no idea what to do with so he just completely undercuts it at every turn. A ragtag study group of conflicting characters, trying to go through community college, good, that’s a great start. Lots of situations, I’ve been to a community college, I know what it’s like, I get it, there’s hundreds of things you can do, comically. And he proceeds to not do any of them and just makes fun of everything else. I mean, if you can’t come up with just good comedy sticking to this premise than you’re not trying, and all he ever does is spoof everything else he can think of. I mean, it’s usually funny, and that’s fine, but just do a sketch comedy show if you want to do that; why even bother with a conceit if you’re not gonna stick to it? I get reinventing and re-imagining a sitcom, but he’s just flat-out, not doing a sitcom most of the time, and the more he does it, the more obnoxious it feels. I feel like I got suckered into one show and got another. It lost me years ago. The more he goes on those other ideas and tangents, the more I wish the original show was back. I mean, I’ll give him points for being forced to work with Chevy Chase, and he’s interesting voice, I wouldn’t call him original honestly, but mostly it just feels like a missed opportunity to me, especially so the longer it keeps staying on the air somewhere.
Alright, sorry for being late on these thoughts, can’t wait for the next podcast.
True Detective so worthy of being on this list. It is not a straightforward story of the hunt for a serial killer but a study of damnation and the slow fall from grace told over eight tense episodes. It created something that’s closer in feel to a James Lee Burke novel than a standard television thriller. It’s a bleak, hardscrabble world leavened only by the odd moment of dark humor. Most importantly it has created a world that is instantly, utterly its own. Atmospheric (the haunting soundtrack comes from country master T Bone Burnett), disturbing and occasionally so pretentious it hurts, True Detective is like nothing else on television right now. It’s not that confusing if you pay attention and use that old skill of inferencing so few shows allow you to do anymore.
To be honest when I watched True Detective I was confused as hell. Like watching a David Lynch movie confused. I could see brilliance in what was on screen but I’d be damned if I could put it together.
You know I can see the Lynch comparison. Except TD has is not nearly as extensional as Lynch is. Its all on the screen, and not as abstract as you might think. Highly recommend watching it with the commentary. Made me appreciate it even more.
I never thought “Twin Peaks” ever worked either, despite myself being a David Lynch fan, but I think the comparison is fitting and that’s the problem with “True Detective”, it’s basically all mood. Look, detective stories, they’re not about, the whodunit, it’s the journey in finding out who did it, It is atmospheric and there’s a lot going, but it doesn’t really add up to much. It’s simply mood for the sake of the mood, and if the mood doesn’t quite work for you, no matter how good everything else is and I’ll admit of it is but, it just comes off as overbearing. It’s an interesting journey, it might make a good book, but if you’re asking, would I want to go through it again, no, not really. It’s not that it confused me per se, but I felt tangled up into a labyrinth that frankly, I didn’t really see the point of being in. That might also be a problem with the television format itself, this season-long mysteries anthology idea, it’s too long for a mystery story. Since it is the journey’s that supposed to grab us, if it’s too long and doesn’t get there quick enough, then it’s just build-up and build-up that most of the time, can’t be lived up to. I found myself having similar issues with a series like “Homeland” or “The Killing” in recent years as well, although the single season, single mystery thing, that started with “24”, essentially, it’s an interesting idea, but i don’t know, I have a hard time claiming it’s entirely successful, and certainly successful enough so far to make this list.
I’ve gone through it three, well two and half times as of today. It did grab me from the beginning. It is overly moody, I could see that, but I don’t see all mood. For me it was never about the whodunit, rather what journey did these two characters journey down to end up where they were. That I was engaged with throughout. The mystery of the killer was there too, but it was never the crux of the story for me.
It was grabbing me in the beginning, but I think it kinda lost me, and part of it was that it became this journey about the characters, the detectives, and I don’t think that’s an interesting as people think it is, oddly enough. It seems like it would be, but, generally the best detective stuff, is oddly when there isn’t that much of a, what’s-his-name, um, “Heart of Darkness,” author. um (Snaps fingers multiple times over,) um, Conrad! This Conrad-ian kinda journey into the mind, when I think detectives are more interesting as a guide, like a Raymond Chandler detective really, it’s the places themselves they keep going into that’s more intriguing. I can see it working, off-the-top-of-my-head, I enjoyed that “Top of the Lake” miniseries with Elisabeth Moss, and that story, had a similar path where it started out as a mystery that devolved into a look into the detective’s own soul and experiences, while we are following this labyrinthian mystery, but watching “True Detective”, I always felt like, it was always, alternating the focus from one to the other instead of intertwining them better, other then through tone. I think that works better in other mediums than television, like film or novels for instance, those diving into the minds like that, on television, when it’s a once-a-week continuous series, I think more often than not, it feels like you’re being jerked around while with a movie, you know it’s more like a long dream so you’re sitting back and experiencing it, and with a novel, you do feel like you’re on the journey with them, and there’s a bit of that with “True Detective”, and that kinda makes me more standoffish towards the show. Like I said, “It’s good, but can I sit through this a second time, on my own?” and yeah, falling into the no category on that.
I’m pretty set on the fact it was as interesting as I thought it was. And alternating focus the way they did was fine with me, but that goes back to the fact you have a very specific way you feel TV has to be. Which I get we all have our preferences. I prefer it when you have a show like True Detective that are shot, produced, and designed as one long film. As I very rarely consume TV on a week to week basis.
Glad to hear your thoughts. Disagree with a some of them, but interesting takes none the less.
I imagined some might disagree.
Okay, I realized I’m a little late, but computer and family issues, blah, blah, blah, so just looking through the list real quick, here’s a few random quick, (Well, quick by my standard) thoughts on some shows #51-75.
“The Dick Van Dyke Show”-way, way, too low, I was the one who had it 8th, and when you go back through television history, the ’60s in general is a weird, and not a great time, especially for sitcoms. It’s still predominantly partially the remnants of the ’50s era cliches, of the family sitcoms, and then there’s a weird attempt to sorta be hip and cool with the mod/hippie era, stuff, like “Batman” which, no shouldn’t have made the list, (plus just weird stuff like “Bewitched”, “The Munsters”, “The Addams Family”, etc.) most of which feels like they don’t get the era (And they usually didn’t) but it’s not until the ’70s when the sitcom finally truly came of age, with the “M*A*S*H”, “All in the Family”, “The Mary Tyler Moore Show”, etc. but the bridge show between those eras, is “The Dick Van Dyke Show”. It’s funny as hell, I mean, it’s Carl Reiner, and he worked on with Sid Caesar in the greatest writing room in TV history and he wrote about it, it’s rule #1, write what you know, plus it is more adult and adventurous than anything before and foreshadows the kind of shows that would come later. Even today, that freedom given to Louis C.K. or Tina Fey or Lena Dunham to do what they want and recreate exaggerated views of their life, eh, that goes back to this show more than most anything else. Way too low.
“Arrow”- No, shouldn’t be on there. And honestly I can’t really understand why any superhero show is on here. (Alright, maybe if the Animated “Batman” series is on here, okay, although at this point, it’d be a little too high. Maybe the original “The Incredible Hulk”, if I’m being generous, or “The Greatest American Hero” if I’m in a quirky mood) I mean, even when I like some of these shows, I can’t understand any scenario of putting them in the Top 100, there’s just better shows out there, and this one’s way too early and really not that good anyway.
“Deadwood”-I’ll give it another shot at some point, it’s okay, but honestly it just felt like a Western with more sex and pissing and shitting and whatever, more bodily fluids inserted, no pun intended into it. That genre barely holds up well to begin with, (Although “Justified” might’ve made the list if I had seen more of the series, I’m only two seasons in, forgive me on that one, glad it’s on there) and I don’t really see what made this one different than the rest other than it was HBO-ized.
“The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”-Okay, it holds up. I always more or less tolerated it growing up, ’cause I was waiting to get through it so I could watch “Blossom”. (Which also stills holds up incredibly well btw, and fun as hell to show younger “The Big Bang Theory” fans, especially the season two opening, it freaks them out! That reaction is priceless.) It’s too high, didn’t make my list, but in hindsight, I can see it on here, it’s a really good show.
“Beavis and Butt-Head”-I was more of a “Daria” guy growing up and I think that is the better show of the two, and actually if I was going for a Mike Judge sitcom, “King of the Hill” is probably the best of his animated works. But, it’s still funny, nothing wrong with it, just didn’t make my list.
“True Detective”-Honestly, I didn’t care for the first season of “True Detective” that much. I mean, I got it, it was good, I haven’t seen the second yet, but (Shrugs) I don’t really get what the big deal was. It just seemed a confusing slough to me. I’m a little surprised it’s on here; I guess this season-long new take on anthology series is interesting, as opposed to the classical idea of “The Twilight Zone” “Alfred Hitchcock Presents” (Which I’m glad made the list, I didn’t think it would, I put “The Twilight Zone” on my list really high, but I actually do prefer “AHP” and “Love, American Style” personally, I’m glad one of them got in, I just couldn’t figure out justifying two anthology series on the list, especially when one is so much more influential, but maybe I should’ve), but most of the time, I just felt like it was a lot of things that weren’t really going anywhere.
“Freaks and Geeks”- I know the people involved became big, maybe I’ll look at it again but I always thought this was “The Wonder Years” with characters that weren’t as smart or likable. I found it annoying back when it was on the air. Maybe I’ll take another look, but I don’t get it.
“The Cosby Show”-I got into some trouble just daring to write a blog about Bill Cosby a few months back; (Even though most of what I was writing about was, “Why now, are we caring since we’ve known for years?”) but honestly the reason it didn’t make my ballot, was because, the show doesn’t hold up. If this was, Most influential or important TV series, then, absolutely it’s Top 50 and that is apart of it, but even before everybody else knew how big a pervert Cosby was, the show is very erratic. There’s some great moments and episodes, brilliant ones even, but most of the time, the show is just awkwardly structured. It’s basically, a few minutes of a family problem, and then the show stops, for five minutes of Bill Cosby, basically doing stand-up, but in the kitchen or something to Phylicia Rashad, something contrived, and then, a slight resolution on whatever the problem was before. It’s not as consistent as people remember, and that was by design btw, and not necessarily bad. “Home Improvement” essentially does this, but Tim Allen’s rants are much more intertwined into the episode and relevant to what’s happening, Cosby’s just stops the show in it’s track most of the time, and they’re funny, but, it’s like watching one thing and then getting interrupted and then going back to it. It’s still a great show, but Top 100, is a stretch for me; . Top 200, it would’ve definitely found a spot easily, but yeah, I’d argue it’s not as great as people remember not because of, but despite what’s gone on lately.
“Buffy the Vampire Slayer”- I don’t understand how anybody likes anything Joss Whedon’s ever done. Including and especially this series, shouldn’t be on here. I’ve tried with this one, but watching this to me, all I ever do is yell at the TV, “Stop Being Stupid!” multiple times over. A teenage girl vampire slayer, fine, but why is she so stupid! This is why I can’t stand him, I know it’s aimed for a certain audience, but he goes down to that audience, and doesn’t try to bring them up and that’s a no-no to me, and it’s annoying. Even if I ignore the “You’re a mystical vampire hunter, just take over the damn school or move on, you idiot, stupidity”, it’s still just too frustrating to watch. That, and he constantly, basically invents sudden dramas that just stay there for no reason, other than for the characters to suddenly get over it ’cause of something else. I mean, yes, all conflict is essentially that, but he does it so sudden and arbitrarily and let’s it sit there, there’s not even any trying to interweave it in, ugh. I know I’m in the minority on this site, I don’t care, he should know better, he’s worked with talented people, hell, he’s related to talented writers, but unless he’s doing somebody else’s work, like that Shakespeare adaptation, I don’t see how anybody thinks anything he’s done is any good.
“Happy Days”-I had one Garry Marshall show on my list and that was “The Odd Couple” that’s the one that really holds up the best. “Happy Days” is good, I love Fonzi like everybody else, hell, he’s why I have a leather jacket collection but it hasn’t aged that well honestly. It also lasted too long, and it literally jumped the shark, (Which means, “the moment a popular/good TV show becomes unwatchable and will clearly never be as good as it once was” btw) eh, I didn’t really see a Top 100 spot for it. Even within the show lineage it’s apart of, I’d probably argue “Love, American Style”, the show it’s spun-off from and “Mork & Mindy” one of it’s many, spinoffs, are better series overall, and maybe even “Laverne & Shirley” too, especially the early seasons of that show we’re better. Great show, I found too many negatives to justify a vote for it though. Again, Top 200, different story.
“Gunsmoke”-I know it lasted twenty years, for numerous reasons, ranging from Sen. Byrd commissioning it to be brought back to CBS President bringing it back even after it was canceled multiple times, canceling “Gilligan’s Island” after it was renewed at one point (Might have been ABC, but I think it’s CBS, someone look that up, please) but too many of those westerns don’t really hold up anymore, and I do think “Gunsmoke” is among them. Not only cause it lasted too long, but most of those series, really are just captured moments of a bygone era. I had “Maverick” on my ballot, ’cause it’s only one that truly comes off as different and distinctive to me than the rest, at least memorably so. I don’t mind “Gunsmoke” on the list, probably deserves a spot, but eh,it doesn’t stick out among the genre other than it lasted forever.
“Full House”-I wrote a blog once about how nostalgia is bad, it’s this kind of crap that’s the reason why I wrote it. It may be remembered but “Full House” doesn’t belong here. Other than the fact that, it’s the first show that show that shows a toddler growing up, and not, like skipping ahead from baby to 5-year-old in a season, there’s really nothing good about this show.
“Community”-Okay, here’s why “Community” shouldn’t be on here, even though it’s funny at times, but Dan Harmon suffers from what I call J.J. Abrams-syndrome, this is where somebody starts out with a great concept or idea for a show, and then, has absolutely no idea what to do with it so he just completely undercuts it at every turn. A ragtag study group of conflicting characters, trying to go through community college, good, that’s a great start. Lots of situations, I’ve been to a community college, I know what it’s like, I get it, there’s hundreds of things you can do, comically. And he proceeds to not do any of them and just makes fun of everything else. I mean, if you can’t come up with just good comedy sticking to this premise than you’re not trying, and all he ever does is spoof everything else he can think of. I mean, it’s usually funny, and that’s fine, but just do a sketch comedy show if you want to do that; why even bother with a conceit if you’re not gonna stick to it?I get referencing other thing, I get reinventing and re-imagining a sitcom, but he’s just flat-out, not doing a sitcom most of the time, and the more he does it, the more obnoxious it feels. I feel like I got suckered into one show and got another. It lost me years ago. The more he goes on those other ideas and tangents, the more I wish the original show was back. I mean, I’ll give him points for being forced to work with Chevy Chase, and he’s an interesting voice, I wouldn’t call him original, but mostly it just feels like a missed opportunity to me, especially so the longer it keeps staying on the air somewhere.
Alright, sorry for being late on these thoughts, can’t wait for the next podcast.
Okay, I realized I’m a little late, but computer and family issues, blah, blah, blah, so just looking through the list real quick, I’ll run through 51-75 and go through a few quick thoughts.
“The Dick Van Dyke Show”-way, way, too low, I was the one who had it 8th, and when you go back through television history, the ’60s in general is a weird, and not a great time, especially for sitcoms. It’s still predominantly partially the remnants of the ’50s era cliches, of the family sitcoms, and then there’s a weird attempt to sorta be hip and cool with the mod/hippie era, stuff, like “Batman” which, no shouldn’t have made the list, (plus just weird stuff like “Bewitched”, “The Munsters”, “The Addams Family”, etc.) most of which feels like they don’t get the era (And they usually didn’t) but it’s not until the ’70s when the sitcom finally truly came of age, with the “M*A*S*H”, “All in the Family”, “The Mary Tyler Moore Show”, etc. but the bridge show between those era, is “The Dick Van Dyke Show”. It’s funny as hell, I mean, it’s Carl Reiner, and he worked on with Sid Caesar in the greatest writing room in TV history and he wrote about it, it’s rule #1, write what you know, plus it is more adult and adventurous than anything before and foreshadows the kind of shows that would come later. Even today, that freedom given to Louis C.K. or Tina Fey or Lena Dunham to do what they want and recreate exaggerated views of their life, eh, that goes back to this show more than most anything else. Way too low.
“Arrow”- No, shouldn’t be on there. And honestly I can’t really understand why any superhero show is on here. (Alright, maybe if the Animated “Batman” series is on here, okay, although at this point, it’d be a little too high. Maybe the original “The Incredible Hulk”, if I’m being generous, or “The Greatest American Hero” if I’m in a quirky mood) I mean, even when I like some of these shows, I can’t understand any scenario of putting them in the Top 100, there’s just better shows out there, and this one’s way too early and really not that good anyway.
“Deadwood”-I’ll give it another shot at some point, it’s okay, but honestly it just felt like a Western with more sex and pissing and shitting and whatever, more bodily fluids inserted, no pun intended into it. That genre barely holds up well to begin with, (Although “Justified” might’ve made the list if I had seen more of the series, I’m only two seasons in, forgive me on that one, glad it’s on there) and I don’t really see what made this one different than the rest other than it was HBO-ized.
“The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”-Okay, it holds up. I always more or less tolerated it growing up, ’cause I was waiting to get through it so I could watch “Blossom” (Which also stills holds up incredibly well btw, and fun as hell to show younger “The Big Bang Theory” fans, especially the season two, it freaks them out! That reaction is priceless), but actually it’s too high, but in hindsight, I can see it on here, it’s a really good show.
“Beavis and Butt-Head”-I was more of a “Daria” guy growing up and I think that is the better show of the two, and actually if I was going for a Mike Judge sitcom, “King of the Hill” is probably the best of his animated works. But, it’s still funny, nothing wrong with it, just didn’t make my list.
“True Detective”-Honestly, I didn’t care for the first season of “True Detective” that much. I mean, I got it, it was good, I haven’t seen the second yet, but (Shrugs) I don’t really get what the big deal was. It just seemed a confusing slough to me. I’m a little surprised it’s on here; I guess this season-long new take on anthology series is interesting, as opposed to the classical idea of “The Twilight Zone” “Alfred Hitchcock Presents” (Which I’m glad made the list, I didn’t think it would, I put “The Twilight Zone” on my list really high, but I actually do prefer “AHP” and “Love, American Style” personally, I’m glad one of them got in, I just couldn’t figure out justifying two anthology series on the list, especially when one is so much more influential, but maybe I should’ve), but most of the time, I just felt like it was a lot of things that weren’t really going anywhere.
“Freaks and Geeks”- I know the people involved became big, maybe I’ll look at it again but I always thought this was “The Wonder Years” with characters that weren’t as smart or likable. I found it annoying back when it was on the air. Maybe I’ll take another look, but I don’t get it.
“The Cosby Show”-I got into some trouble just daring to write a blog about Bill Cosby a few months back; (Even though most of what I was writing about was, “Why now, are we caring since we’ve known for years?”) but honestly the reason it didn’t make my ballot, was because, it doesn’t hold up. If this was, Most influential or important TV series, then, absolutely it’s Top 50 and that is apart of it, but even before everybody knew how big a pervert Cosby was, the show is very erratic. There’s some great moments and episodes, brilliant ones even, but most of the time, the show is just awkwardly structured. It’s basically, a few minutes of a family problem, and then the show stops, for five minutes of Bill Cosby, basically doing stand-up, but in the kitchen or something to Phylicia Rashad something contrived, and then, a slight resolution on whatever the problem was before. It’s not as consistent as people remember, and that was by design btw, and not necessarily bad. “Home Improvement” essentially does this, but Tim Allen’s rants are much more intertwined into the episode and relevant, Cosby’s just stops the show in it’s track most of the time, and they’re funny, but, it’s like watching one thing and then getting interrupted and then going back to it. It’s still a great show, but Top 100, is a stretch for me. Top 200, it would’ve definitely found a spot, but yeah, I’d argue it’s not as great as people remember not because of, but despite what’s gone on lately.
“Buffy the Vampire Slayer”- I don’t understand how anybody likes anything Joss Whedon’s ever done. Including and especially this series, shouldn’t be on here. I’ve tried with this one, but watching this to me, all I ever do is yell at the TV, “Stop Being Stupid!” multiple times over. A teenage girl vampire slayer, fine, but why is she so stupid! This is why I can’t stand him, I know it’s aimed for a certain audience, but he goes down to that audience, and doesn’t try to bring them up and that’s a no-no to me, and it’s annoying. Even if I ignore the “You’re a mystical vampire hunter, just take over the damn school or move on, you idiot, stupidity”, it’s still just too frustrating to watch. That, and he constantly, basically invents sudden dramas that just stay there for no reason, other than for the characters to suddenly get over ’cause of something else. I mean, yes, all conflict is essentially that, but he does it so sudden and arbitrarily and let’s it sit there, there’s not even any trying to interweave it in, ugh. I know I’m in the minority on this site, I don’t care, he should know better, he’s worked with talented people, hell, he’s related to talented writers, but unless he’s doing somebody else’s work, like that Shakespeare adaptation, I don’t see how anybody thinks anything he’s done is any good.
“Happy Days”-I had one Garry Marshall show on my list and that was “The Odd Couple” that’s the one that really holds up the best. “Happy Days” is good, I love Fonzi like everybody else, hell, he’s why I have a leather jacket collection but it hasn’t aged that well honestly. It also lasted too long, and it literally jumped the shark, (Which means, “the moment a popular/good TV show becomes unwatchable and will clearly never be as good as it once was btw) eh, I didn’t really see a Top 100 spot for it. Even within the show lineage it’s apart of, I’d probably argue “Love, American Style”, the show it’s spun-off from and “Mork & Mindy” one of it’s many, spinoffs, are better series overall, and maybe even “Laverne & Shirley” too, especially the early seasons of that show we’re better. Great show, I found too many negatives to justify a vote for it though. Again, Top 200, different story.
“Gunsmoke”-I know it lasted twenty years, for numerous reasons, ranging from Sen. Byrd commissioning it to be brought back to CBS President bringing it back even after it was canceled multiple times, canceling “Gilligan’s Island” after it was renewed at one point (Might have been ABC, but I think it’s CBS, someone look that up) but too many of those westerns don’t really hold up anymore, and I do think “Gunsmoke” is among them. Not only cause it lasted too long, but most of those series, really are just captures moments of a bygone era, I had “Maverick” on my ballot, ’cause it’s only one that truly comes off as different and distinctive to me than the rest, at least memorably so. I don’t mind it on the list, probably deserves a spot, but eh,it doesn’t stick out among the genre other than it lasted forever.
“Full House”-I wrote a blog once about how nostalgia is bad once, it’s this kind of crap that’s the reason why I wrote it. It may be remembered but “Full House” doesn’t belong here. Other than the fact that, it’s the first show that show that shows a toddler growing up, and not, like skipping ahead from baby to 5-year-old in a season, there’s really nothing good about this show.
“Community”-Okay, here’s why “Community” shouldn’t be on here, even though it’s funny at times, but Dan Harmon suffers from what I call J.J. Abrams-syndrome, this is where somebody starts out with a great concept or idea for a show, and then, has absolutely no idea what to do with so he just completely undercuts it at every turn. A ragtag study group of conflicting characters, trying to go through community college, good, that’s a great start. Lots of situations, I’ve been to a community college, I know what it’s like, I get it, there’s hundreds of things you can do, comically. And he proceeds to not do any of them and just makes fun of everything else. I mean, if you can’t come up with just good comedy sticking to this premise than you’re not trying, and all he ever does is spoof everything else he can think of. I mean, it’s usually funny, and that’s fine, but just do a sketch comedy show if you want to do that; why even bother with a conceit if you’re not gonna stick to it? I get reinventing and re-imagining a sitcom, but he’s just flat-out, not doing a sitcom most of the time, and the more he does it, the more obnoxious it feels. I feel like I got suckered into one show and got another. It lost me years ago. The more he goes on those other ideas and tangents, the more I wish the original show was back. I mean, I’ll give him points for being forced to work with Chevy Chase, and he’s interesting voice, I wouldn’t call him original honestly, but mostly it just feels like a missed opportunity to me, especially so the longer it keeps staying on the air somewhere.
Alright, sorry for being late on these thoughts, can’t wait for the next podcast.
True Detective so worthy of being on this list. It is not a straightforward story of the hunt for a serial killer but a study of damnation and the slow fall from grace told over eight tense episodes. It created something that’s closer in feel to a James Lee Burke novel than a standard television thriller. It’s a bleak, hardscrabble world leavened only by the odd moment of dark humor. Most importantly it has created a world that is instantly, utterly its own. Atmospheric (the haunting soundtrack comes from country master T Bone Burnett), disturbing and occasionally so pretentious it hurts, True Detective is like nothing else on television right now. It’s not that confusing if you pay attention and use that old skill of inferencing so few shows allow you to do anymore.
To be honest when I watched True Detective I was confused as hell. Like watching a David Lynch movie confused. I could see brilliance in what was on screen but I’d be damned if I could put it together.
You know I can see the Lynch comparison. Except TD has is not nearly as extensional as Lynch is. Its all on the screen, and not as abstract as you might think. Highly recommend watching it with the commentary. Made me appreciate it even more.
I never thought “Twin Peaks” ever worked either, despite myself being a David Lynch fan, but I think the comparison is fitting and that’s the problem with “True Detective”, it’s basically all mood. Look, detective stories, they’re not about, the whodunit, it’s the journey in finding out who did it, It is atmospheric and there’s a lot going, but it doesn’t really add up to much. It’s simply mood for the sake of the mood, and if the mood doesn’t quite work for you, no matter how good everything else is and I’ll admit of it is but, it just comes off as overbearing. It’s an interesting journey, it might make a good book, but if you’re asking, would I want to go through it again, no, not really. It’s not that it confused me per se, but I felt tangled up into a labyrinth that frankly, I didn’t really see the point of being in. That might also be a problem with the television format itself, this season-long mysteries anthology idea, it’s too long for a mystery story. Since it is the journey’s that supposed to grab us, if it’s too long and doesn’t get there quick enough, then it’s just build-up and build-up that most of the time, can’t be lived up to. I found myself having similar issues with a series like “Homeland” or “The Killing” in recent years as well, although the single season, single mystery thing, that started with “24”, essentially, it’s an interesting idea, but i don’t know, I have a hard time claiming it’s entirely successful, and certainly successful enough so far to make this list.
I’ve gone through it three, well two and half times as of today. It did grab me from the beginning. It is overly moody, I could see that, but I don’t see all mood. For me it was never about the whodunit, rather what journey did these two characters journey down to end up where they were. That I was engaged with throughout. The mystery of the killer was there too, but it was never the crux of the story for me.
It was grabbing me in the beginning, but I think it kinda lost me, and part of it was that it became this journey about the characters, the detectives, and I don’t think that’s an interesting as people think it is, oddly enough. It seems like it would be, but, generally the best detective stuff, is oddly when there isn’t that much of a, what’s-his-name, um, “Heart of Darkness,” author. um (Snaps fingers multiple times over,) um, Conrad! This Conrad-ian kinda journey into the mind, when I think detectives are more interesting as a guide, like a Raymond Chandler detective really, it’s the places themselves they keep going into that’s more intriguing. I can see it working, off-the-top-of-my-head, I enjoyed that “Top of the Lake” miniseries with Elisabeth Moss, and that story, had a similar path where it started out as a mystery that devolved into a look into the detective’s own soul and experiences, while we are following this labyrinthian mystery, but watching “True Detective”, I always felt like, it was always, alternating the focus from one to the other instead of intertwining them better, other then through tone. I think that works better in other mediums than television, like film or novels for instance, those diving into the minds like that, on television, when it’s a once-a-week continuous series, I think more often than not, it feels like you’re being jerked around while with a movie, you know it’s more like a long dream so you’re sitting back and experiencing it, and with a novel, you do feel like you’re on the journey with them, and there’s a bit of that with “True Detective”, and that kinda makes me more standoffish towards the show. Like I said, “It’s good, but can I sit through this a second time, on my own?” and yeah, falling into the no category on that.
I’m pretty set on the fact it was as interesting as I thought it was. And alternating focus the way they did was fine with me, but that goes back to the fact you have a very specific way you feel TV has to be. Which I get we all have our preferences. I prefer it when you have a show like True Detective that are shot, produced, and designed as one long film. As I very rarely consume TV on a week to week basis.
Glad to hear your thoughts. Disagree with a some of them, but interesting takes none the less.
I imagined some might disagree.
Okay, I realized I’m a little late, but computer and family issues, blah, blah, blah, so just looking through the list real quick, here’s a few random quick, (Well, quick by my standard) thoughts on some shows #51-75.
“The Dick Van Dyke Show”-way, way, too low, I was the one who had it 8th, and when you go back through television history, the ’60s in general is a weird, and not a great time, especially for sitcoms. It’s still predominantly partially the remnants of the ’50s era cliches, of the family sitcoms, and then there’s a weird attempt to sorta be hip and cool with the mod/hippie era, stuff, like “Batman” which, no shouldn’t have made the list, (plus just weird stuff like “Bewitched”, “The Munsters”, “The Addams Family”, etc.) most of which feels like they don’t get the era (And they usually didn’t) but it’s not until the ’70s when the sitcom finally truly came of age, with the “M*A*S*H”, “All in the Family”, “The Mary Tyler Moore Show”, etc. but the bridge show between those eras, is “The Dick Van Dyke Show”. It’s funny as hell, I mean, it’s Carl Reiner, and he worked on with Sid Caesar in the greatest writing room in TV history and he wrote about it, it’s rule #1, write what you know, plus it is more adult and adventurous than anything before and foreshadows the kind of shows that would come later. Even today, that freedom given to Louis C.K. or Tina Fey or Lena Dunham to do what they want and recreate exaggerated views of their life, eh, that goes back to this show more than most anything else. Way too low.
“Arrow”- No, shouldn’t be on there. And honestly I can’t really understand why any superhero show is on here. (Alright, maybe if the Animated “Batman” series is on here, okay, although at this point, it’d be a little too high. Maybe the original “The Incredible Hulk”, if I’m being generous, or “The Greatest American Hero” if I’m in a quirky mood) I mean, even when I like some of these shows, I can’t understand any scenario of putting them in the Top 100, there’s just better shows out there, and this one’s way too early and really not that good anyway.
“Deadwood”-I’ll give it another shot at some point, it’s okay, but honestly it just felt like a Western with more sex and pissing and shitting and whatever, more bodily fluids inserted, no pun intended into it. That genre barely holds up well to begin with, (Although “Justified” might’ve made the list if I had seen more of the series, I’m only two seasons in, forgive me on that one, glad it’s on there) and I don’t really see what made this one different than the rest other than it was HBO-ized.
“The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”-Okay, it holds up. I always more or less tolerated it growing up, ’cause I was waiting to get through it so I could watch “Blossom”. (Which also stills holds up incredibly well btw, and fun as hell to show younger “The Big Bang Theory” fans, especially the season two opening, it freaks them out! That reaction is priceless.) It’s too high, didn’t make my list, but in hindsight, I can see it on here, it’s a really good show.
“Beavis and Butt-Head”-I was more of a “Daria” guy growing up and I think that is the better show of the two, and actually if I was going for a Mike Judge sitcom, “King of the Hill” is probably the best of his animated works. But, it’s still funny, nothing wrong with it, just didn’t make my list.
“True Detective”-Honestly, I didn’t care for the first season of “True Detective” that much. I mean, I got it, it was good, I haven’t seen the second yet, but (Shrugs) I don’t really get what the big deal was. It just seemed a confusing slough to me. I’m a little surprised it’s on here; I guess this season-long new take on anthology series is interesting, as opposed to the classical idea of “The Twilight Zone” “Alfred Hitchcock Presents” (Which I’m glad made the list, I didn’t think it would, I put “The Twilight Zone” on my list really high, but I actually do prefer “AHP” and “Love, American Style” personally, I’m glad one of them got in, I just couldn’t figure out justifying two anthology series on the list, especially when one is so much more influential, but maybe I should’ve), but most of the time, I just felt like it was a lot of things that weren’t really going anywhere.
“Freaks and Geeks”- I know the people involved became big, maybe I’ll look at it again but I always thought this was “The Wonder Years” with characters that weren’t as smart or likable. I found it annoying back when it was on the air. Maybe I’ll take another look, but I don’t get it.
“The Cosby Show”-I got into some trouble just daring to write a blog about Bill Cosby a few months back; (Even though most of what I was writing about was, “Why now, are we caring since we’ve known for years?”) but honestly the reason it didn’t make my ballot, was because, the show doesn’t hold up. If this was, Most influential or important TV series, then, absolutely it’s Top 50 and that is apart of it, but even before everybody else knew how big a pervert Cosby was, the show is very erratic. There’s some great moments and episodes, brilliant ones even, but most of the time, the show is just awkwardly structured. It’s basically, a few minutes of a family problem, and then the show stops, for five minutes of Bill Cosby, basically doing stand-up, but in the kitchen or something to Phylicia Rashad, something contrived, and then, a slight resolution on whatever the problem was before. It’s not as consistent as people remember, and that was by design btw, and not necessarily bad. “Home Improvement” essentially does this, but Tim Allen’s rants are much more intertwined into the episode and relevant to what’s happening, Cosby’s just stops the show in it’s track most of the time, and they’re funny, but, it’s like watching one thing and then getting interrupted and then going back to it. It’s still a great show, but Top 100, is a stretch for me; . Top 200, it would’ve definitely found a spot easily, but yeah, I’d argue it’s not as great as people remember not because of, but despite what’s gone on lately.
“Buffy the Vampire Slayer”- I don’t understand how anybody likes anything Joss Whedon’s ever done. Including and especially this series, shouldn’t be on here. I’ve tried with this one, but watching this to me, all I ever do is yell at the TV, “Stop Being Stupid!” multiple times over. A teenage girl vampire slayer, fine, but why is she so stupid! This is why I can’t stand him, I know it’s aimed for a certain audience, but he goes down to that audience, and doesn’t try to bring them up and that’s a no-no to me, and it’s annoying. Even if I ignore the “You’re a mystical vampire hunter, just take over the damn school or move on, you idiot, stupidity”, it’s still just too frustrating to watch. That, and he constantly, basically invents sudden dramas that just stay there for no reason, other than for the characters to suddenly get over it ’cause of something else. I mean, yes, all conflict is essentially that, but he does it so sudden and arbitrarily and let’s it sit there, there’s not even any trying to interweave it in, ugh. I know I’m in the minority on this site, I don’t care, he should know better, he’s worked with talented people, hell, he’s related to talented writers, but unless he’s doing somebody else’s work, like that Shakespeare adaptation, I don’t see how anybody thinks anything he’s done is any good.
“Happy Days”-I had one Garry Marshall show on my list and that was “The Odd Couple” that’s the one that really holds up the best. “Happy Days” is good, I love Fonzi like everybody else, hell, he’s why I have a leather jacket collection but it hasn’t aged that well honestly. It also lasted too long, and it literally jumped the shark, (Which means, “the moment a popular/good TV show becomes unwatchable and will clearly never be as good as it once was” btw) eh, I didn’t really see a Top 100 spot for it. Even within the show lineage it’s apart of, I’d probably argue “Love, American Style”, the show it’s spun-off from and “Mork & Mindy” one of it’s many, spinoffs, are better series overall, and maybe even “Laverne & Shirley” too, especially the early seasons of that show we’re better. Great show, I found too many negatives to justify a vote for it though. Again, Top 200, different story.
“Gunsmoke”-I know it lasted twenty years, for numerous reasons, ranging from Sen. Byrd commissioning it to be brought back to CBS President bringing it back even after it was canceled multiple times, canceling “Gilligan’s Island” after it was renewed at one point (Might have been ABC, but I think it’s CBS, someone look that up, please) but too many of those westerns don’t really hold up anymore, and I do think “Gunsmoke” is among them. Not only cause it lasted too long, but most of those series, really are just captured moments of a bygone era. I had “Maverick” on my ballot, ’cause it’s only one that truly comes off as different and distinctive to me than the rest, at least memorably so. I don’t mind “Gunsmoke” on the list, probably deserves a spot, but eh,it doesn’t stick out among the genre other than it lasted forever.
“Full House”-I wrote a blog once about how nostalgia is bad, it’s this kind of crap that’s the reason why I wrote it. It may be remembered but “Full House” doesn’t belong here. Other than the fact that, it’s the first show that show that shows a toddler growing up, and not, like skipping ahead from baby to 5-year-old in a season, there’s really nothing good about this show.
“Community”-Okay, here’s why “Community” shouldn’t be on here, even though it’s funny at times, but Dan Harmon suffers from what I call J.J. Abrams-syndrome, this is where somebody starts out with a great concept or idea for a show, and then, has absolutely no idea what to do with it so he just completely undercuts it at every turn. A ragtag study group of conflicting characters, trying to go through community college, good, that’s a great start. Lots of situations, I’ve been to a community college, I know what it’s like, I get it, there’s hundreds of things you can do, comically. And he proceeds to not do any of them and just makes fun of everything else. I mean, if you can’t come up with just good comedy sticking to this premise than you’re not trying, and all he ever does is spoof everything else he can think of. I mean, it’s usually funny, and that’s fine, but just do a sketch comedy show if you want to do that; why even bother with a conceit if you’re not gonna stick to it?I get referencing other thing, I get reinventing and re-imagining a sitcom, but he’s just flat-out, not doing a sitcom most of the time, and the more he does it, the more obnoxious it feels. I feel like I got suckered into one show and got another. It lost me years ago. The more he goes on those other ideas and tangents, the more I wish the original show was back. I mean, I’ll give him points for being forced to work with Chevy Chase, and he’s an interesting voice, I wouldn’t call him original, but mostly it just feels like a missed opportunity to me, especially so the longer it keeps staying on the air somewhere.
Alright, sorry for being late on these thoughts, can’t wait for the next podcast.
Okay just finished. Had to take a break after Community fell so law. It was another dagger after Big Bang beat it in the countdown. At least Veep and Silicon Valley made it. Agreed on the infamous dick joke in season one of SV. One of the best ever.
Arrow that I don’t know about. Get its a good comic book show but its probably the worst show discussed on the episode quality wise. Way too high.
Don’t disagree Arrow doesn’t belong but wouldn’t say its the worst on the list. That still goes to Agents of SHIELD for me.
and Adventures of Brisco County!
Oh yea, that one. I can’t comment on how good it was because I never saw it or knew it was a thing before a month ago.
I’d recommend checking it out. It’s definitely developed a cult following over the years, but it’s well deserved. Hopefully the positive feedback to “Ash vs The Evil Dead” will mean more people will revisit to see Bruce Campbell do something other than carve up deadites.
I’m sorry you can like it all you want but stop with the ‘well deserved’ nonsense. I could name 200 shows more deserving of that spot that also have cult followings!
I meant that the cult following was well deserved.
ah I see
That’s an interesting poll question afterwards, the worst show that makes the list, hmm. That could be as Arte Johnson would say, “Very interesting.”
Okay just finished. Had to take a break after Community fell so law. It was another dagger after Big Bang beat it in the countdown. At least Veep and Silicon Valley made it. Agreed on the infamous dick joke in season one of SV. One of the best ever.
Arrow that I don’t know about. Get its a good comic book show but its probably the worst show discussed on the episode quality wise. Way too high.
Don’t disagree Arrow doesn’t belong but wouldn’t say its the worst on the list. That still goes to Agents of SHIELD for me.
and Adventures of Brisco County!
Oh yea, that one. I can’t comment on how good it was because I never saw it or knew it was a thing before a month ago.
I’d recommend checking it out. It’s definitely developed a cult following over the years, but it’s well deserved. Hopefully the positive feedback to “Ash vs The Evil Dead” will mean more people will revisit to see Bruce Campbell do something other than carve up deadites.
I’m sorry you can like it all you want but stop with the ‘well deserved’ nonsense. I could name 200 shows more deserving of that spot that also have cult followings!
I meant that the cult following was well deserved.
ah I see
That’s an interesting poll question afterwards, the worst show that makes the list, hmm. That could be as Arte Johnson would say, “Very interesting.”
So I like the concept you are working with here. Taking a bunch of people and getting a barometer of what people’s opinions are of what shows are the best. The numbering is wacky of course. A lot of shows that are currently on scoring too high. Fargo, True Detective, and Mr. Robot are good show, all time great is another question.
Weird though a show like 30 Rock scored so low. Considering I would think that would be much higher than 57. Community falling before Silicon Valley and Freaks and Geeks a big surprise too. Once I think I have it figured out I lose it.
have you checked out our past Top 100s just out of curiosity? You can find them both here: https://www.geekcastradio.com/top-100
We also reached out to numerous people for those as well.
Yeah the list for the TV shows has ben VERY WACKY in my mind, but overall I’m not too unhappy with what we have put together.
So I like the concept you are working with here. Taking a bunch of people and getting a barometer of what people’s opinions are of what shows are the best. The numbering is wacky of course. A lot of shows that are currently on scoring too high. Fargo, True Detective, and Mr. Robot are good show, all time great is another question.
Weird though a show like 30 Rock scored so low. Considering I would think that would be much higher than 57. Community falling before Silicon Valley and Freaks and Geeks a big surprise too. Once I think I have it figured out I lose it.
have you checked out our past Top 100s just out of curiosity? You can find them both here: https://www.geekcastradio.com/top-100
We also reached out to numerous people for those as well.
Yeah the list for the TV shows has ben VERY WACKY in my mind, but overall I’m not too unhappy with what we have put together.